<div dir="ltr">Hi all,<br><div>Here are the notes for the call today, they are also stored <a href="https://hackmd.io/@oidf-wg-sse/wg-meeting-20230725">here</a></div><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span><div dir="ltr" style="margin-left:0pt" align="left"><table style="border:none;border-collapse:collapse"><colgroup><col width="142"><col width="482"></colgroup><tbody><tr style="height:0pt"><td style="vertical-align:middle;padding:-9.432pt -9.432pt -9.432pt -9.432pt;overflow:hidden"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><a href="https://sgnl.ai" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Work Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="border:none;display:inline-block;overflow:hidden;width:137px;height:68px"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aO7jB_JqOxA0tVDXsAotNQnsfEkxEORgtkVnVFrmkR7O8j3B4lbbRsGFuprzQhfDmri2YH8_dnjPiZnGMZxIcT9xRcdY6rYm-xGophLkgvl_v8istAefyh4qkSVINQtPfcmq5BZiKbfFHmursSUHyll1jEWBTd--nw26MIMKd86Br32rGZkvJwnEED_nzQ" width="137" height="68" style="margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px"></span></span></a></p></td><td style="vertical-align:top;padding:5pt 5pt 5pt 5pt;overflow:hidden"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.44;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Work Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Atul Tulshibagwale</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.44;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Work Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">CTO </span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font size="1"><span style="font-family:"Work Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="border:none;display:inline-block;overflow:hidden;width:20px;height:27px"><a href="https://linkedin.com/in/tulshi" target="_blank"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/ezm4lDcLtajK4RMqqHALoRgXyaC4HRlw0wWsR2Jvms0V9Wrxr3x5G66zsUrYpRXyeJ3RwLS3GdKUwO0Ui5mXPodSkUx8Xsarf_vj6WlJ05Y1qJoMFTlCZnEgtHvlJ7_7Dr7zWNjkvf3nMW9u1P5ye76SeHgz2QqGQ_rm-sjqYOS-vH1UZL7Yiewi4UO3Qw" width="20" height="27" style="margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px"></a> </span></span><span style="font-family:"Work Sans",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="border:none;display:inline-block;overflow:hidden;width:20px;height:27px"><a href="https://twitter.com/zirotrust" target="_blank"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/HAnAvykj318aQf5zTUZkjIJDtwelDecFi5d-idBrpUDBj7aKTdup5Mfia6UIbXTAP46zg7gigNnroQ9he3j81Sf9qCRRSS-w_nZ3oSXJnYLbPlCXgt6IqoifgHXETuJSRvFIZRIdn_aAbtp8ilKFyIVuTXjVe6cNAfXc5KZNwJeYinwfZZxVvHHaR5uIdQ" width="20" height="27" style="margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px"></a> </span></span><a href="mailto:atul@sgnl.ai" target="_blank"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/63PpVJLMybZyfD61JVu0TVH_KkP_IhneeBpDNvbd1KeSFJn6KZzWCgp4hFbrTrIxfksYyM-_wOjNKbjEhSQ2khRXVI3XKcwABLNLI_bFjkN0_NgVoijs_nIRcVJKeQm0s0MRdtkUkCOp5Omyv1faqcNiQxGEUyAvmE9HkeeQCeHa-LxleK0oHSAyQrDY6g" width="21" height="21" style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px"></a></font></p></td></tr></tbody></table><h1 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-WG-Meeting-2022-07-25" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:24px 0px 16px;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);padding-bottom:0.3em;border-bottom:1px solid rgb(238,238,238);letter-spacing:0.35px"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">WG Meeting: 2022-07-25</span></h1><h2 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-Agenda" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-bottom:0.3em;border-bottom:1px solid rgb(238,238,238);letter-spacing:0.35px"><a class="gmail-anchor gmail-hidden-xs" href="https://hackmd.io/KJCbLSjETvq5xYjnoxURpA?view#Agenda" title="Agenda" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1"><span class="gmail-octicon gmail-octicon-link" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:1;font-family:octicons;display:inline-block;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:middle"></span></a><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Agenda</span></h2><ul class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-left:2em;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.35px"><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box"><a href="https://github.com/openid/sharedsignals/issues/85" target="_blank" rel="noopener" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Simple & Complex Subject Identifiers</span></a></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><a href="https://github.com/openid/sharedsignals/issues/79" target="_blank" rel="noopener" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">endpoint_url <-> url</span></a></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><a href="https://github.com/openid/sharedsignals/issues/54" target="_blank" rel="noopener" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Include format in a config example</span></a></li></ul><h2 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-Attendees" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-bottom:0.3em;border-bottom:1px solid rgb(238,238,238);letter-spacing:0.35px"><a class="gmail-anchor gmail-hidden-xs" href="https://hackmd.io/KJCbLSjETvq5xYjnoxURpA?view#Attendees" title="Attendees" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1"><span class="gmail-octicon gmail-octicon-link" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:1;font-family:octicons;display:inline-block;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:middle"></span></a><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Attendees</span></h2><ul class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-left:2em;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.35px"><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Shayne Miel (Cisco)</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Eric Karlinsky (Okta)</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Atul Tulshibagwale (SGNL)</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Steve Venema (ForgeRock)</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Apoorva Deshpande (Okta)</span></li></ul><h2 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-Notes" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-bottom:0.3em;border-bottom:1px solid rgb(238,238,238);letter-spacing:0.35px"><a class="gmail-anchor gmail-hidden-xs" href="https://hackmd.io/KJCbLSjETvq5xYjnoxURpA?view#Notes" title="Notes" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1"><span class="gmail-octicon gmail-octicon-link" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:1;font-family:octicons;display:inline-block;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:middle"></span></a><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Notes</span></h2><h3 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-Simple-and-Complex-Subject-Identifiers" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;font-size:1.25em;letter-spacing:0.35px"><a class="gmail-anchor gmail-hidden-xs" href="https://hackmd.io/KJCbLSjETvq5xYjnoxURpA?view#Simple-and-Complex-Subject-Identifiers" title="Simple-and-Complex-Subject-Identifiers" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1"><span class="gmail-octicon gmail-octicon-link" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:1;font-family:octicons;display:inline-block;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:middle"></span></a><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Simple and Complex Subject Identifiers</span></h3><ul class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-left:2em;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.35px"><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Steve] Why are we inventing something new when the SecEvents SubIds draft is becoming an RFC already and has the “aliases” option</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Shayne] Aliases isn’t formatted correctly to hold information such as “user”, or “device”, or other</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Steve] I was thinking of “device” or “user” as extensions of SubIds</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Steve] we would define additional formats in the SubIds, such as “device”, “user”, etc.</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Atul] The “identifiers” is an array, which would allow duplicates of “user” and “device”</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Shayne] Benefit of using “complex”, is that you can have a “user” element, and it can have any format. Not so in the aliases way of doing things.</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Steve] Example came from framework spec. Main attraction is that subject types are well defined and registered. But you lose the semantics of “user” and “device” if you are just using aliases with simple subjects</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Shayne] Is it so bad to lose those semantics? The risk is clashes - i.e. a user and device being misidentified for each other. But how likely is that?</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Shayne] Feeling like maybe we don’t need Complex Subjects at all</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Steve] Feeling like Complex Subjects are as good as we’ve got</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Both] Let’s continue debate next week</span></li></ul><h3 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-Endpoint-URL-lt-gt-URL" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;font-size:1.25em;letter-spacing:0.35px"><a class="gmail-anchor gmail-hidden-xs" href="https://hackmd.io/KJCbLSjETvq5xYjnoxURpA?view#Endpoint-URL-lt-gt-URL" title="Endpoint-URL-lt-gt-URL" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1"><span class="gmail-octicon gmail-octicon-link" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:1;font-family:octicons;display:inline-block;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:middle"></span></a><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Endpoint URL <-> URL</span></h3><ul class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-left:2em;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.35px"><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Atul] What is the sensitivity to breaking the implementer’s draft?</span></li><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-top:0.25em"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Eric] Reviewing the thread to understand impact. Need to defer to Apoorva</span></li></ul><h3 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-Include-Format-in-Config-Example" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;font-size:1.25em;letter-spacing:0.35px"><a class="gmail-anchor gmail-hidden-xs" href="https://hackmd.io/KJCbLSjETvq5xYjnoxURpA?view#Include-Format-in-Config-Example" title="Include-Format-in-Config-Example" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1"><span class="gmail-octicon gmail-octicon-link" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:1;font-family:octicons;display:inline-block;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:middle"></span></a><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Include Format in Config Example</span></h3><ul class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-left:2em;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.35px"><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">[Shayne] I can create a new PR for this</span></li></ul><h2 class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" id="gmail-Action-Items" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";line-height:1.25;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-top:24px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-bottom:0.3em;border-bottom:1px solid rgb(238,238,238);letter-spacing:0.35px"><a class="gmail-anchor gmail-hidden-xs" href="https://hackmd.io/KJCbLSjETvq5xYjnoxURpA?view#Action-Items" title="Action-Items" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none;float:left;padding-right:4px;line-height:1"><span class="gmail-octicon gmail-octicon-link" style="box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:16px;line-height:1;font-family:octicons;display:inline-block;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:middle"></span></a><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Action Items</span></h2><ul class="gmail-part gmail-in-view" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:16px;padding-left:2em;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:-apple-system,"system-ui","Segoe UI","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol";font-size:16px;letter-spacing:0.35px"><li class="gmail-" style="box-sizing:border-box"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">Shayne to create PR to resolve </span><a href="https://github.com/openid/sharedsignals/issues/54" target="_blank" rel="noopener" style="box-sizing:border-box;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration-line:none"><span style="box-sizing:border-box">#54</span></a></li></ul></div></span></div></div></div>