<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Regarding distribution, I think the key point missed in the minutes was that no individual draft can solve all problems and make everyone happy - there are 3 areas of diverging opinion AFAIK (see my email earlier today).<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Phil</div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Architect & Standards</div><div class="">@independentid</div><div class=""><a href="http://www.independentid.com" class="">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class="" style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 3, 2017, at 10:30 AM, Adam Dawes <<a href="mailto:adawes@google.com" class="">adawes@google.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><span id="gmail-docs-internal-guid-445478e3-34dd-4972-7c50-f8f9d96ae8f6" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;" class="">April 3</span></div><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;" class="">Adam Dawes, George Fletcher, Dick Hardt, Phil Hunt, Henrik Biering</span></div><br class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;" class="">Recap of IETF 98. </span></div><ul style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" class=""><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: disc; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">SET spec had some good comments and feedback at the meeting. Mike Jones has action items to move those issues forward. </span></div></li><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: disc; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">Distribution spec is far from consensus. </span></div></li><ul style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" class=""><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: circle; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">Phil is still advocating that SCIM manage the control plane as SCIM already defines a control plane and would also be one of the profiling specs for SecEvents. Doing anything else would be redundant. Back channel logout has already defined a mechanism and RISC’s requirements are different. </span></div></li><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: circle; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">Dick has pointed out that the Distribution draft has not been adopted by the workgroup so there is still a lot of room to be able to propose different options. Phil has welcomed others taking a stab at this.</span></div></li></ul><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: disc; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">RISC and Sec Events</span></div></li><ul style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" class=""><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: circle; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">Since RISC is dependent on Sec Events, there is a desire to accelerate the work of that WG. </span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class=""><br class="gmail-kix-line-break"></span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">AI:</span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> Adam to propose on the Sec Events list to start with regular calls and F2F meetings.</span></div></li><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: circle; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">Do we need two days for the next RISC F2F if all the control plane discussion is happening with Sec Events? We’ll see what the path forward is on distribution draft and whether it ends up in RISC or Sec Events to figure out whether this makes sense.</span></div></li></ul></ul><br class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;" class="">Semantics of RISC messages</span></div><ul style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" class=""><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type: disc; font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">Future RISC meetings, we’ll focus more on the sematics of the RISC signals. </span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class=""><br class="gmail-kix-line-break"></span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class="">AI:</span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> Marius to publish to the list or bitbucket the set of RISC events that Google supports now.</span></div></li></ul><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;" class="">Legal update</span></div><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=""><ul class=""><li class="">Adam talked to lawyers and they are going to take a look at not having to specifically enumerate signals that need to be sent and make that a matter of internal process based on how data is to be handled. They will circle back on that issue. There was interest in participating in a lawyerfest to hammer out a more general agreement in May timeframe.
<b class="">AI:</b><span style="background-color:transparent;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline" class=""> Dick to circle with Amazon legal and work to pull together lawyerfest.</span></li></ul></span></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Phil Hunt <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target="_blank" class="">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">I’m not going to say much on the call. I will say that as co-author of the individual contribution for the distribution spec that we are at an impasse.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The problem is summed up as follows:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">1. There are many profiling standards groups all intending to share the spec. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- SCIM which originated SECEVENTs does not need a control-pane because it is the control pane. Therefore, endpoint discovery is already solved and they will not want a new protocol.</div><div class="">- RISC - while many members overlap SCIM members, others do not. They object to SCIM because it is a new protocol. I do not understand, but they seem to think a new protocol is simpler. RISC however seems to have the most complex data requirements in order to handle consent management.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- OpenID Connect had already decided they were doing their own protocol to align with connect (this is being debated)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Currently I do not see a possible consensus for common management of distribution endpoints.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">2. Enterprise vs. Consumer - Strong push back on supporting multi-tenancy and RBAC style administration. Concepts like monitoring by shared security centers vs. individual event transmissions per enterprise customer. In short, orgs with enterprise customers have complex legal and administrative issues that must be accounted for.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is no consensus on administration.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">3. IETF and Old vs New - During the chartering, members of the IESG raised strong objection to new management protocols. The IETF has too many now. In particular there was upset about NETCONF not being used. Yaron has continued to raise this issue. Others I respect also raised concern at yet another pub-sub protocol and are perplexed at this WG’s efforts. We must address this. One way is to profile existing specifications rather than invent.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This suggests a long uphill climb to publication.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Conclusion:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’ve tried to warn the community but these impasses remain. Unless the group aligns strongly in it consensus on a solution, it is likely the work will end or not move forwards.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I do not believe that endless re-writes of the drafts will fix the underlying problems. We are shifting deck-chairs and bike shedding. Pick an analogy.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I admit, I’ve pushed too hard on this and the issues have now been attributed to me. As a result, I plan to take myself out of the equation and let the group simply resolve the problem on its own.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best Regards,</div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><span class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">Phil</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Architect & Standards</div><div class="">@independentid</div><div class=""><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=c2q9rDV8g3VqfGfMzDggNEfKyICKJDN36ZHZOY5oXhU&s=T98iYToBIFH5yOu6L0WNr6RsM5ATrNraFLN8cXFSetE&e=" target="_blank" class="">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target="_blank" class="">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="h5"><div class="">On Apr 2, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Adam Dawes <<a href="mailto:adawes@google.com" target="_blank" class="">adawes@google.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_5206475382310481480Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="h5"><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi all,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For tomorrow's call, I thought we would try to do a recap of IETF 98. </div><div class=""><ul class=""><li class="">SET spec</li><li class="">Distribution spec</li></ul><div class="">I also wanted to discuss meeting logistics going forward. As a lot of our discussion has been focused on the mechanics of the SET and distribution, those are actually largely in the charter for the Sec Events WG and where most discussion should be. So, if Dick can make the call, I wanted to propose splitting our current call time into half Sec Events and half RISC. Also, given this dynamic, I wanted to potentially re-frame our upcoming F2F as at least part Sec Events.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">thanks,</div><div class="">AD</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__global.gotomeeting.com_join_576653581&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=Zi6LyD7j7xNl_RBd8oAEGF1sjnstS0aWPPkGKd31sAA&s=un9pCeqkkW_OrFrynup5giSTu4omgp3X0qhIO0tXWd8&e=" target="_blank" class="">https://global.gotomeeting.<wbr class="">com/join/576653581</a></div><div class="">You can also dial in using your phone.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">United States <a href="tel:(786)%20358-5410" value="+17863585410" target="_blank" class="">+1 (786) 358-5410</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Access Code: 576-653-581 </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">More phone numbers</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Australia (Long distance): <a href="tel:+61%202%209087%203604" value="+61290873604" target="_blank" class="">+61 2 9087 3604</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Austria (Long distance): +43 7 2088 1400</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Belgium (Long distance): +32 (0) 92 98 0592</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Canada (Long distance): <a href="tel:(647)%20497-9350" value="+16474979350" target="_blank" class="">+1 (647) 497-9350</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Denmark (Long distance): <a href="tel:+45%2069%2091%2088%2062" value="+4569918862" target="_blank" class="">+45 69 91 88 62</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Finland (Long distance): +358 (0) 942 41 5778</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">France (Long distance): +33 (0) 182 880 456</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Germany (Long distance): <a href="tel:+49%2069%20257367211" value="+4969257367211" target="_blank" class="">+49 (0) 692 5736 7211</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ireland (Long distance): +353 (0) 14 845 976</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Italy (Long distance): +39 0 247 92 12 39</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Netherlands (Long distance): +31 (0) 208 080 379</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">New Zealand (Long distance): <a href="tel:+64%204-974%207215" value="+6449747215" target="_blank" class="">+64 4 974 7215</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Norway (Long distance): <a href="tel:+47%2021%2003%2058%2096" value="+4721035896" target="_blank" class="">+47 21 03 58 96</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Spain (Long distance): <a href="tel:+34%20911%2082%2097%2082" value="+34911829782" target="_blank" class="">+34 911 82 9782</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Sweden (Long distance): +46 (0) 313 613 558</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Switzerland (Long distance): +41 (0) 225 3314 51</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">United Kingdom (Long distance): <a href="tel:+44%2020%203535%200621" value="+442035350621" target="_blank" class="">+44 (0) 20 3535 0621</a></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div>-- <br class=""><div class="m_5206475382310481480gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="line-height:1.5em;padding-top:10px;margin-top:10px;color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small" class=""><span style="border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,37);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px" class="">Adam Dawes |</span><span style="border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px" class=""> Sr. Product Manager |</span><span style="border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0,153,57);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px" class=""> <a href="mailto:adawes@google.com" target="_blank" class="">adawes@google.com</a> |</span><span style="border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px" class=""> <a href="tel:(650)%20214-2410" value="+16502142410" target="_blank" class=""><wbr class="">+1 650-214-2410</a></span></div><br class=""></div></div>
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