[Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62

Dave Tonge dave.tonge at momentumft.co.uk
Mon Mar 12 14:05:03 UTC 2018


Yes, that is correct.

Although it is not always "more" permissions. Sometimes it is different
permissions, e.g. each CIBA flow may be for a different payment.

Dave

On 12 March 2018 at 14:01, <nicolas.aillery at orange.com> wrote:

> Hello David,
>
>
>
>    Here, the first id_token enables to trigger a subsequent authentication.
>
>    Is the goal of this subsequent authentication to retrieve an
> access_token with more privileges?
>
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> *De :* Dave Tonge [mailto:dave.tonge at momentumft.co.uk]
> *Envoyé :* lundi 12 mars 2018 14:54
> *À :* AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
> *Cc :* Petteri Stenius; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ;
> openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net
> *Objet :* Re: [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback
> for #62
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> I think there is a valid use case for this.
>
> Outside of the MNO space we are considering whether a redirect-flow is a
> prerequisite before a CIBA flow can be initiated.
>
> The redirect flow would result in the RP having an id token, they could
> then use that id token to initiate multiple subsequent CIBA flows.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 12 March 2018 at 13:23, <nicolas.aillery at orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Petteri,
>
>
>
>    I don’t think it’s a good idea to offer an interface to the user so
> that he can enter a MSISDN of his choice and trigger a challenge on the
> device corresponding to the MSISDN. Adding an antispam code is an approach,
> that is a pre-authentication of the user based on a secret shared amongst
> the user, all his apps and his MNO. It implies trust in all apps.
>
>    If this pre-authentication is necessary for security, why don’t
> standardize we it, by saying that CIBA is a second factor authentication
> after a first factor that is a login/password (or MSISDN/user_code)
> authentication?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> *De :* Petteri Stenius [mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com]
> *Envoyé :* lundi 12 mars 2018 13:52
>
>
> *À :* AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
> *Cc :* openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net; PABLO GUIJARRO
> ENRIQUEZ; GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
> *Objet :* RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
>
>
>
> Hi Nicholas
>
>
>
> That is correct, the code will become known to all applications using back
> channel flows where I have logged on.
>
> Do you think there is a risk of the applications collecting the code and
> using the code for sending unsolicited authentication requests? Is the
> situation any worse than it is without user code?
>
> What we want to do is prevent anybody who only needs to know my phone
> number from sending unsolicited authentication requests.
>
>
>
> About OTP: My authentication device could generate and display the OTP in
> the device’s user interface.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Petteri
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* nicolas.aillery at orange.com <nicolas.aillery at orange.com>
> *Sent:* maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 14.28
> *To:* Petteri Stenius <Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com>
> *Cc:* openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net; PABLO GUIJARRO
> ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>; GONZALO FERNANDEZ
> RODRIGUEZ <gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com>
> *Subject:* RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
>
>
>
> Hello Petteri,
>
>
>
>    In the case you describe, the secret is not secret anymore (shared
> amongst all apps).
>
>    How would you implement an OTP-like antispam code?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> *De :* Petteri Stenius [mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com
> <Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com>]
> *Envoyé :* lundi 12 mars 2018 12:52
> *À :* AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
> *Cc :* openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net; PABLO GUIJARRO
> ENRIQUEZ; GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
> *Objet :* RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
>
>
>
> Hi Nicholas,
>
>
>
> I am not trying to reproduce an oauth 2 use case with user code.
>
>
>
> Let me clarify with an example
>
>
>
> Registration
>
>
>
> 1.      I register for Mobile PKI service at my mobile operator
>
> 2.      I register a spam prevention code by sending a PIN code by SMS to
> my mobile operator
>
>
>
> Logon
>
>
>
> 1.      To logon to an application with Mobile PKI, I enter my mobile
> phone number on a logon form
>
> 2.      The application attempts to send authentication request to my
> mobile phone but receives an error code indicating spam prevention code is
> required
>
> 3.      The application presents a form for entering the spam prevention
> code
>
> 4.      I enter the PIN I registered
>
> 5.      Application is allowed to send authentication request to my
> mobile phone
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Petteri
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* nicolas.aillery at orange.com <nicolas.aillery at orange.com>
> *Sent:* maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 12.53
> *To:* Petteri Stenius <Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com>; GONZALO FERNANDEZ
> RODRIGUEZ <gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com>
> *Cc:* openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net; PABLO GUIJARRO
> ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>
> *Subject:* RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
>
>
>
> Hello Petteri,
>
>
>
>    If the « user_code » is a way to materialize the fact that the user
> allowed a SP to use CIBA, I think we are very close to an OAuth2.0 use
> case, the user_code being an access_token. This situation looks like a
> nonsense for me.
>
>    It seems important to have a clear view of the use cases where the
> user_code is involved to address them the best way,
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> *De :* Petteri Stenius [mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com
> <Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com>]
> *Envoyé :* lundi 12 mars 2018 10:48
> *À :* GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ; AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
> *Cc :* openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net; PABLO GUIJARRO
> ENRIQUEZ
> *Objet :* RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I have written a proposal for this feature into issue tracker
> https://bitbucket.org/openid/mobile/issues/62/ciba-support-
> for-spam-prevention-code-in
>
>
>
> My proposal for name of parameter is user_code. The code is used to
> authorize sending an authentication request to user’s authentication
> device. In other words to prevent unsolicited authentication requests from
> appearing on user’s authentication device.
>
>
>
> I completely agree that there are many cases where this mechanism is not
> required. Still it is quite easy to identify cases where it may be
> necessary. That is why the parameter is optional.
>
>
>
> The details of how user codes works and are registered is not within the
> scope of this proposal. However it is perfectly possible to implement user
> codes as one time passwords. For example, to authorize an authentication
> request you’d enter a one time code that is shown on the authentication
> device.
>
>
>
> Petteri
>
>
>
> *From:* Openid-specs-mobile-profile <openid-specs-mobile-profile-
> bounces at lists.openid.net> *On Behalf Of *GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
> *Sent:* lauantai 10. maaliskuuta 2018 14.49
> *To:* nicolas.aillery at orange.com
> *Cc:* openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net; PABLO GUIJARRO
> ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback
> for #62
>
>
>
> Hi Nicolas,
>
>
>
> First of all, thank you for your feedback.
>
>
>
> I understand your view, I personally don't like to use an anti-spam code
> in CIBA, however it is only a proposal that try to fullfil the requirements
> of this opened issue, and if the WG don't agree we can decide not include
> the anti-spam code :).  However I have to say that in spite of the fact
> that I agree that a secret among more than 2 people is not a secret, what
> is proposed to be included in the CIBA spec in a way to carry-out the
> anti-spam code in the protocol and the way that it is shared is out of the
> scope of this spec.
>
>
>
> The OpenID providers can offer a secure way to share the anti-spam code
> with the Service Providers asking the user for consent (of course). I
> personally don't see the utility of it, I only can think about it as a way
> where a user could have potentially more control on what he wants to allow
> to Service Providers, that is, those who has the anti-spam code could
> interact with the user using the CIBA flow, otherwise they must use the
> Device flow.
>
>
>
> Honestly I don't think these use cases makes sense, we don't have these
> kind of use cases reported by Petteri and we really think that a Service
> Provider shouldn't have any interest in doing spam and others couldn't do
> it because CIBA authentication request uses an authenticated endpoint and
> only Service Providers can use it, but it was the only way I thought it
> could be supported by the protocol.
>
>
>
> P.D: agree that “spam-code” can be confusing ☺
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Gonza.
>
>
>
> *From: *"nicolas.aillery at orange.com" <nicolas.aillery at orange.com>
> *Date: *Friday, 9 March 2018 at 10:30
> *To: *GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ <gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez@
> telefonica.com>
> *Cc: *PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>, "
> openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net" <
> openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>
> *Subject: *RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
>
>
>
> Hello Gonzalo,
>
>
>
>    Here are two remarks about your proposal :
>
> -       I think using the wording ‘spam-code’ to describe an *anti*spam
> code will introduce some confusion.
>
> -       I’m not sure it’s a good idea to expose the antispam code on
> CIBA. This code is similar to a user password, so it should be a secret
> between a user and his MNO. It was created to protect the user in a
> situation where anybody was able to enter any MSISDN on a public form (e.g.
> the GSMA discovery page before an OpenId Connect interaction). In CIBA,
> it’s the SP that will call CIBA, so using an antispam code implies that the
> secret is also shared amongst all SP (is this still a secret?). On another
> hand, is there still a spam risk in CIBA? Yes, if SP allow any user to
> enter any MSISDN, but in this situation the SP should use the classic
> OpenId Connect flow (because the user is already using the SP to be able to
> enter a MSISDN). No, if the SP uses CIBA as a second factor. My proposal is
> that CIBA does not implement antispam code, and that MNO does not check the
> antispam code when CIBA is used.
>
>
>
>    What is your point of view about this proposal?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> *De :* Openid-specs-mobile-profile [mailto:openid-specs-mobile-
> profile-bounces at lists.openid.net
> <openid-specs-mobile-profile-bounces at lists.openid.net>] *De la **part de*
> GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 2 mars 2018 14:40
> *À :* openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net
> *Cc :* PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ
> *Objet :* [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for
> #62
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I continue asking you for feedback about another CIBA issue, in that cases
> is the #62 https://bitbucket.org/openid/mobile/issues/62/ciba-support-
> for-spam-prevention-code-in
>
>
>
> The spam-code belongs to the end-user, so it should be configured by the
> end-user in the OpenID Provider.
>
> The CIBA flow doesn't have an interactive session with the end-user, but
> is the user who is contacted directly in his authentication device, what
> means that the end-user won't have the possibility to introduce the
> spam-code in his authentication, so, it only could be done by the Client.
>
>
>
> We think that it would be possible to add support for that in CIBA as
> follow:
>
>
>
> 1.            A new OPTIONAL field "spam-code" in the CIBA authentication
> request.
>
> 2.            An specific error in case of the end-user had the anti-spam
> activatedin the OIDC and the Service Provider didn't include it in the
> authentication request.
>
>
>
> It is worth it to highlight that this would be an optional feature
> implemented by the OIDC's and it should be "out of the scope" of CIBA to
> define how the end-user would share the spam-code with the Service Provider
> and how the end-user would configure the spam-code in the OIDC.
>
>
>
> I would like to know again your point of view on that in order to resolve
> this issue.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Gonza.
>
>
>
>
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> --
>
> *Dave Tonge*
>
> CTO
>
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