[Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
nicolas.aillery at orange.com
nicolas.aillery at orange.com
Mon Mar 12 16:11:26 UTC 2018
Hello Dave,
I’m not sure to understand the benefit to have the id_token in the second flow, as it create a dependency between the two flows.
Another option:
- The RP retrieves a refresh_token and access_token in a OAuth Authorization Code flow.
- When the RP needs to enforce a payment for this user,
o The RP gets a fresh access_token thanks to the refresh_token
o The RP uses the access_token on the Payment RS along with payment details (the access_token means “the user allowed me to request payments”)
o The Payment RS notifies the user of new payment request
o The user authenticates and authorizes the current payment
o Payment is done
Regards,
Nicolas
De : Dave Tonge [mailto:dave.tonge at momentumft.co.uk]
Envoyé : lundi 12 mars 2018 16:13
À : AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
Cc : Petteri Stenius; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ; openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net
Objet : Re: [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
The payment RS is protected by access tokens - but it should be agnostic to how those tokens are generated - whether by redirect or CIBA.
Current steps are:
1. payment resource created using access token from client_credentials grant (scoped to RP, but not user)
2. id of the new payment resource included in request object for redirect flow - use redirected to OP (the bank)
3. user authenticates and authorises payment and is redirect back to RP
4. RP gets code and exchanges for access token and id_token
5. RP uses access token to initiate the payment
In a subsequent CIBA flow it would be:
1. payment resource created using access token from client_credentials grant (scoped to RP, but not user)
2. id of the new payment resource and previously received id token included in request object for CIBA flow
3. OP (the bank) notifies user of new payment request, user authenticates and authorises payment
4. RP gets access token (by polling or notification)
5. RP uses access token to initiate the payment
It would be good to get feedback on this.
Thanks
Dave
On 12 March 2018 at 15:02, <nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>> wrote:
Hello Dave,
For payment use cases, wouldn’t it be more interesting to use a Payment RS?
This RS would be protected by OAuth (via an access_token), would take the purchase as parameter and would include an out-of-band authentication/validation before processing the payment.
Regards,
Nicolas
De : Dave Tonge [mailto:dave.tonge at momentumft.co.uk<mailto:dave.tonge at momentumft.co.uk>]
Envoyé : lundi 12 mars 2018 15:05
À : AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
Cc : Petteri Stenius; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ; openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>
Objet : Re: [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Yes, that is correct.
Although it is not always "more" permissions. Sometimes it is different permissions, e.g. each CIBA flow may be for a different payment.
Dave
On 12 March 2018 at 14:01, <nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>> wrote:
Hello David,
Here, the first id_token enables to trigger a subsequent authentication.
Is the goal of this subsequent authentication to retrieve an access_token with more privileges?
Nicolas
De : Dave Tonge [mailto:dave.tonge at momentumft.co.uk<mailto:dave.tonge at momentumft.co.uk>]
Envoyé : lundi 12 mars 2018 14:54
À : AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
Cc : Petteri Stenius; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ; openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>
Objet : Re: [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hi
I think there is a valid use case for this.
Outside of the MNO space we are considering whether a redirect-flow is a prerequisite before a CIBA flow can be initiated.
The redirect flow would result in the RP having an id token, they could then use that id token to initiate multiple subsequent CIBA flows.
Dave
On 12 March 2018 at 13:23, <nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>> wrote:
Hello Petteri,
I don’t think it’s a good idea to offer an interface to the user so that he can enter a MSISDN of his choice and trigger a challenge on the device corresponding to the MSISDN. Adding an antispam code is an approach, that is a pre-authentication of the user based on a secret shared amongst the user, all his apps and his MNO. It implies trust in all apps.
If this pre-authentication is necessary for security, why don’t standardize we it, by saying that CIBA is a second factor authentication after a first factor that is a login/password (or MSISDN/user_code) authentication?
Regards,
Nicolas
De : Petteri Stenius [mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com<mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com>]
Envoyé : lundi 12 mars 2018 13:52
À : AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
Cc : openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ; GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
Objet : RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hi Nicholas
That is correct, the code will become known to all applications using back channel flows where I have logged on.
Do you think there is a risk of the applications collecting the code and using the code for sending unsolicited authentication requests? Is the situation any worse than it is without user code?
What we want to do is prevent anybody who only needs to know my phone number from sending unsolicited authentication requests.
About OTP: My authentication device could generate and display the OTP in the device’s user interface.
Regards,
Petteri
From: nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com> <nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>>
Sent: maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 14.28
To: Petteri Stenius <Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com<mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com>>
Cc: openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com<mailto:pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>>; GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ <gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com<mailto:gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com>>
Subject: RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hello Petteri,
In the case you describe, the secret is not secret anymore (shared amongst all apps).
How would you implement an OTP-like antispam code?
Regards,
Nicolas
De : Petteri Stenius [mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com]
Envoyé : lundi 12 mars 2018 12:52
À : AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
Cc : openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ; GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
Objet : RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hi Nicholas,
I am not trying to reproduce an oauth 2 use case with user code.
Let me clarify with an example
Registration
1. I register for Mobile PKI service at my mobile operator
2. I register a spam prevention code by sending a PIN code by SMS to my mobile operator
Logon
1. To logon to an application with Mobile PKI, I enter my mobile phone number on a logon form
2. The application attempts to send authentication request to my mobile phone but receives an error code indicating spam prevention code is required
3. The application presents a form for entering the spam prevention code
4. I enter the PIN I registered
5. Application is allowed to send authentication request to my mobile phone
Regards,
Petteri
From: nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com> <nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>>
Sent: maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 12.53
To: Petteri Stenius <Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com<mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com>>; GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ <gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com<mailto:gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com>>
Cc: openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com<mailto:pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>>
Subject: RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hello Petteri,
If the « user_code » is a way to materialize the fact that the user allowed a SP to use CIBA, I think we are very close to an OAuth2.0 use case, the user_code being an access_token. This situation looks like a nonsense for me.
It seems important to have a clear view of the use cases where the user_code is involved to address them the best way,
Regards,
Nicolas
De : Petteri Stenius [mailto:Petteri.Stenius at ubisecure.com]
Envoyé : lundi 12 mars 2018 10:48
À : GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ; AILLERY Nicolas IMT/OLS
Cc : openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ
Objet : RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hello,
I have written a proposal for this feature into issue tracker https://bitbucket.org/openid/mobile/issues/62/ciba-support-for-spam-prevention-code-in
My proposal for name of parameter is user_code. The code is used to authorize sending an authentication request to user’s authentication device. In other words to prevent unsolicited authentication requests from appearing on user’s authentication device.
I completely agree that there are many cases where this mechanism is not required. Still it is quite easy to identify cases where it may be necessary. That is why the parameter is optional.
The details of how user codes works and are registered is not within the scope of this proposal. However it is perfectly possible to implement user codes as one time passwords. For example, to authorize an authentication request you’d enter a one time code that is shown on the authentication device.
Petteri
From: Openid-specs-mobile-profile <openid-specs-mobile-profile-bounces at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile-bounces at lists.openid.net>> On Behalf Of GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
Sent: lauantai 10. maaliskuuta 2018 14.49
To: nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>
Cc: openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>; PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com<mailto:pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>>
Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hi Nicolas,
First of all, thank you for your feedback.
I understand your view, I personally don't like to use an anti-spam code in CIBA, however it is only a proposal that try to fullfil the requirements of this opened issue, and if the WG don't agree we can decide not include the anti-spam code :). However I have to say that in spite of the fact that I agree that a secret among more than 2 people is not a secret, what is proposed to be included in the CIBA spec in a way to carry-out the anti-spam code in the protocol and the way that it is shared is out of the scope of this spec.
The OpenID providers can offer a secure way to share the anti-spam code with the Service Providers asking the user for consent (of course). I personally don't see the utility of it, I only can think about it as a way where a user could have potentially more control on what he wants to allow to Service Providers, that is, those who has the anti-spam code could interact with the user using the CIBA flow, otherwise they must use the Device flow.
Honestly I don't think these use cases makes sense, we don't have these kind of use cases reported by Petteri and we really think that a Service Provider shouldn't have any interest in doing spam and others couldn't do it because CIBA authentication request uses an authenticated endpoint and only Service Providers can use it, but it was the only way I thought it could be supported by the protocol.
P.D: agree that “spam-code” can be confusing ☺
Best,
Gonza.
From: "nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>" <nicolas.aillery at orange.com<mailto:nicolas.aillery at orange.com>>
Date: Friday, 9 March 2018 at 10:30
To: GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ <gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com<mailto:gonzalo.fernandezrodriguez at telefonica.com>>
Cc: PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ <pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com<mailto:pablo.guijarroenriquez at telefonica.com>>, "openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>" <openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>>
Subject: RE: CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hello Gonzalo,
Here are two remarks about your proposal :
- I think using the wording ‘spam-code’ to describe an *anti*spam code will introduce some confusion.
- I’m not sure it’s a good idea to expose the antispam code on CIBA. This code is similar to a user password, so it should be a secret between a user and his MNO. It was created to protect the user in a situation where anybody was able to enter any MSISDN on a public form (e.g. the GSMA discovery page before an OpenId Connect interaction). In CIBA, it’s the SP that will call CIBA, so using an antispam code implies that the secret is also shared amongst all SP (is this still a secret?). On another hand, is there still a spam risk in CIBA? Yes, if SP allow any user to enter any MSISDN, but in this situation the SP should use the classic OpenId Connect flow (because the user is already using the SP to be able to enter a MSISDN). No, if the SP uses CIBA as a second factor. My proposal is that CIBA does not implement antispam code, and that MNO does not check the antispam code when CIBA is used.
What is your point of view about this proposal?
Best regards,
Nicolas
De : Openid-specs-mobile-profile [mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile-bounces at lists.openid.net] De la part de GONZALO FERNANDEZ RODRIGUEZ
Envoyé : vendredi 2 mars 2018 14:40
À : openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-mobile-profile at lists.openid.net>
Cc : PABLO GUIJARRO ENRIQUEZ
Objet : [Openid-specs-mobile-profile] CIBA Issues Review: Feedback for #62
Hi all,
I continue asking you for feedback about another CIBA issue, in that cases is the #62 https://bitbucket.org/openid/mobile/issues/62/ciba-support-for-spam-prevention-code-in
The spam-code belongs to the end-user, so it should be configured by the end-user in the OpenID Provider.
The CIBA flow doesn't have an interactive session with the end-user, but is the user who is contacted directly in his authentication device, what means that the end-user won't have the possibility to introduce the spam-code in his authentication, so, it only could be done by the Client.
We think that it would be possible to add support for that in CIBA as follow:
1. A new OPTIONAL field "spam-code" in the CIBA authentication request.
2. An specific error in case of the end-user had the anti-spam activatedin the OIDC and the Service Provider didn't include it in the authentication request.
It is worth it to highlight that this would be an optional feature implemented by the OIDC's and it should be "out of the scope" of CIBA to define how the end-user would share the spam-code with the Service Provider and how the end-user would configure the spam-code in the OIDC.
I would like to know again your point of view on that in order to resolve this issue.
Best,
Gonza.
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Moneyhub Enterprise is a trading style of Momentum Financial Technology Limited which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority ("FCA"). Momentum Financial Technology is entered on the Financial Services Register (FRN 561538) at fca.org.uk/register<http://fca.org.uk/register>. Momentum Financial Technology is registered in England & Wales, company registration number 06909772 © . Momentum Financial Technology Limited 2016. DISCLAIMER: This email (including any attachments) is subject to copyright, and the information in it is confidential. Use of this email or of any information in it other than by the addressee is unauthorised and unlawful. Whilst reasonable efforts are made to ensure that any attachments are virus-free, it is the recipient's sole responsibility to scan all attachments for viruses. All calls and emails to and from this company may be monitored and recorded for legitimate purposes relating to this company's business. Any opinions expressed in this email (or in any attachments) are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Momentum Financial Technology Limited or of any other group company.
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
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Thank you.
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