<div dir="ltr">Hi Bill-- I'm not sure what the HL7 consent/contract standards are about, but based on what I know of "notice and consent" (privacy) theory, and "contract" (legal) theory (IANAL but I have collected lawyers for many years as part of my UMA work), there is not very much in the technical underpinnings of almost any technical or machine-readable consent flow used on the web today, to support a true non-adhesion contract for Alice. (Perhaps the closest thing on the OAuth side would be requiring an OAuth scope unchecking facility, but that's still not a formal mapping to a contract model -- has someone done that mapping?)<div><br></div><div>In the UMA group, with the help of Tim Reiniger (the primary drafter of the new Virginia digital identity law), we have recently started applying a "license" vs. a "contract" paradigm to the UMA flows. In fact, we're planning to discuss this on today's UMA call in a little over an hour.</div><div><br></div><div>I may be on the wrong track here, but this is what your note put me in mind of...</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">
<p><b>Eve Maler<br></b>ForgeRock Office of the CTO | VP Innovation & Emerging Technology<br>Cell +1 425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl<br>Join our <a href="http://forgerock.org/openuma/" target="_blank">ForgeRock.org OpenUMA</a> community!</p></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Kinsley, William <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:BKinsley@nextgen.com" target="_blank">BKinsley@nextgen.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a">I need Eva to verify that what I am saying is correct, I am still coming up to speed on UMA … HL7 has/is developing FHIR consent(contract) standards and I believe
the oAuth and UMA profiles are in scope to support these and possibly others. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a">To easily support interoperability, is it possible (or in scope) to develop profile standards or profile taxonomy that would be flexible and adaptable so that the
RS would be able to process FHIR consents even if they are modified by a specific implementation without special coding. This could be too idealistic, out of scope or just not supportable with oAuth and/or UMA profiles.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a">For example: A client could connect to any FHIR resource and process any Heart Profile that is provided, even if the client is another RS running in a “Client” role
to another RS .<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a">Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Eve Maler [mailto:<a href="mailto:eve.maler@forgerock.com" target="_blank">eve.maler@forgerock.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 07, 2015 10:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Aaron Seib<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kinsley, William; <a href="mailto:openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-heart] Flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Commenting on one of Aaron's bulleted items:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Profiling "a standard way to label assets managed by the RS" is one of the tasks I was contemplating to be potentially in scope for our semantic UMA profile. This is because it is possible for resource set descriptions (these are things
that an UMA RS registers at an AS, to put resources under protection) to include resource types. As I understand it, the FHIR API conveys data structures that reflect quite a lot of HL7 standardization work already done, which amounts to "resource typing".<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While a lot of companies with proprietary APIs might not want to standardize their resource assets, there's a lot of power in standardized resource labeling in open ecosystems like the one we're working on. For starters, there's a
<a href="https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-oauth-resource-reg-v1_0.html#rfc.section.4" target="_blank">
security consideration</a> that is mitigated by the use of "well-known and standardized" description elements. (See this <a href="https://github.com/xmlgrrl/UMA-Specifications/issues/151" target="_blank">UMA issue</a> for some background.) For another example, standard types
could drive automated policy workflows in interesting ways.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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</div></div><div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
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<div>
<p><b>Eve Maler<br>
</b>ForgeRock Office of the CTO | VP Innovation & Emerging Technology<br>
Cell <a href="tel:%2B1%20425.345.6756" value="+14253456756" target="_blank">+1 425.345.6756</a> | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl<br>
Join our <a href="http://forgerock.org/openuma/" target="_blank">ForgeRock.org OpenUMA</a> community!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div></div><div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Aaron Seib <<a href="mailto:aaron.seib@nate-trust.org" target="_blank">aaron.seib@nate-trust.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks for starting this new thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I am not expert in this space (yet) but let me see if I can repeat back what I think you are proposing.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Are you suggesting that for Resource Server (RS) be able to accept a standard profile authorization
assertion (based on the UMA profile) from a standard (UMA-based) Authorization Server (AS)?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I maybe out of date but I seem to remember reading that the UMA profile states that the Authorization
Policy service capabilities (as required to implement an AS) are out of scope for the UMA profile - as are the specific policies for how you label assets (network, applications, data) managed by the RS with access tokens that are registered with and managed
by the AS. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">To echo back your language is your suggestion that
</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;background:yellow">it</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"> ^would^
<span style="background:yellow">be simpler to have consistent patterns (libraries) implemented</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> that would address what the UMA profile has intentionally said is out
of scope? I.e., </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">addressing the need for a standard way to label assets managed by the RS; and (?)
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">a standard way to represent the inputs to an Authorization Policy Service</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In my mind this would allow us to not only solve the simple cases but also enable us to develop libraries
that represent the applicable policy of a given Federal Reg or libraries of applicable state law that could be re-used by everyone. It might also enable the different associations to provide recommended policies to be adopted by their members and plugged
into the solution following a period of local policy tweaking by a given institution or Agency.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Am I getting this right?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Aaron Seib, CEO</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">@CaptBlueButton
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> (o)
<a href="tel:301-540-2311" target="_blank">301-540-2311</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(m)
<a href="tel:301-326-6843" target="_blank">301-326-6843</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://nate-trust.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="205" height="48" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D0B96A.2D63C6D0"></span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Openid-specs-heart [mailto:<a href="mailto:openid-specs-heart-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-heart-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kinsley, William<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 06, 2015 8:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Openid-specs-heart] Flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">I am starting a new thread … I think we need to flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA”. I feel confident that
we are going to discover use cases that cannot be supported by “Vanilla” OAuth or would be greatly simplified by using UMA.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">Maybe the real question to ask is: Are there any augments (use case, technology restriction, cost, etc.) that justifies
NOT using (requiring) UMA?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">From a interoperability, quality, security and development perspective, would it be simpler to have consistent patterns
(libraries) implemented that are more likely to be “drop-in compatible” without source changes. While the standard itself would be considered rigid, it would be flexible by the use and implementation of the UMA profiles.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">The caveat here is the resource server (RS) would need to be able to accept/process a UMA profile without developing custom
code to interpret it. Would this require resource servers to adhere to a standard set of UMA profiles or a defined UMA profile taxonomy that could describe the healthcare consent models (if one exists)?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">Bill</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.7pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">William Kinsley<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Enterprise Architect, Ambulatory</span><u></u><u></u></p><span class="">
<div>
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795 Horsham Road, Horsham, PA 19044<br>
<a href="tel:%28215%29%20657-7010%20x21128" target="_blank">(215) 657-7010 x21128</a> [o] <br>
<a href="mailto:BKinsley@nextgen.com" target="_blank">BKinsley@nextgen.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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<u><span style="color:blue">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-heart</span></u><u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
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