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    So that sounds like you're putting in a chip for Josh's option (a):
    do all the things.<br>
    <br>
     -- Justin<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/1/2015 5:24 AM, Eve Maler wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMPbGmiU99K81siB83mC70oxXAydd8ey670J-nc-t857k1EbMg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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      <div dir="ltr">After overnight reflection (I'm in the UK at the
        moment), I might have been a bit unclear in my previous message,
        and may have come off sort of harsh. If so, I'm sorry about
        that!
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>What I guess I mean is, in our daily lives, we are among
          the various parties in the world who are working on use cases
          that go through a technology selection process and end up
          choosing OAuth, UMA, OIDC, a variety of APIs, solution stacks,
          etc. With our "HEART hats" on, it's our responsibility
          according to our charter to scan the use case and technology
          selection landscape and be sure we're paying attention to both
          our own and others' experiences along these lines and covering
          design patterns that are worth profiling for security,
          privacy, and interop on several levels. It's not our
          responsibility to eliminate design pattern options.</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
        <div>
          <div class="gmail_signature">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div>
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <p><b>Eve Maler<br>
                    </b>ForgeRock Office of the CTO | VP Innovation
                    & Emerging Technology<br>
                    Cell +1 425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter:
                    @xmlgrrl<br>
                    Join our <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://forgerock.org/openuma/"
                      target="_blank">ForgeRock.org OpenUMA</a>
                    community!</p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Eve
          Maler <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:eve.maler@forgerock.com" target="_blank">eve.maler@forgerock.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">I'm a little confused about this thread.
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>We first launched the group with a discussion that
                looked like this: "We are going to profile a variety of
                technologies. For those who want to deploy technology
                foo, the profile for foo will be of interest to them.
                For those who want to deploy technology bar which builds
                on foo, the profiles for both foo and bar will be of
                interest to them." and so on.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Eventually we produced a picture that looked
                something like this (this is my latest, prettiest
                version):
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><img src="cid:part3.02050508.02070208@mit.edu"
                    alt="Inline image 1" height="241" width="472"><br>
                </div>
                <div>Obviously, where vanilla OAuth will suffice, it's
                  interesting because it's widely deployed and
                  understood. But for some OAuth-esque flows, UMA can
                  provide additional value, and FWIW, I'm in some
                  conversations where this is being requested.<br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>If someone is interested to do something with
                    OAuth towards the purpose of "enabling an individual
                    to control the authorization of access to RESTful
                    health-related data sharing APIs", of course we
                    should consider profiling that function. Likewise,
                    if someone is interested to do something with UMA
                    towards that purpose, according to our charter, I
                    would have said we should consider profiling that
                    function.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>So I don't understand the question [highlight
                      is mine] "<span
                        style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">When HEART
                        encounters a use case like this, by which
                        principle(s) we should <b>select</b> vanilla
                        OAuth vs. UMA?</span>"</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_extra"><span class="HOEnZb"><font
                  color="#888888"><br clear="all">
                  <div>
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                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div>
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <p><b>Eve Maler<br>
                              </b>ForgeRock Office of the CTO | VP
                              Innovation & Emerging Technology<br>
                              Cell <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="tel:%2B1%20425.345.6756"
                                value="+14253456756" target="_blank">+1
                                425.345.6756</a> | Skype: xmlgrrl |
                              Twitter: @xmlgrrl<br>
                              Join our <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://forgerock.org/openuma/"
                                target="_blank">ForgeRock.org OpenUMA</a>
                              community!</p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </font></span>
              <div>
                <div class="h5">
                  <br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:45
                    PM, Aaron Seib <span dir="ltr"><<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:aaron.seib@nate-trust.org"
                        target="_blank">aaron.seib@nate-trust.org</a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Josh
                              – I agree and support the notion of
                              soliciting input from those who have
                              implemented these types of solutions in
                              the past.  Ensuring that we don’t define
                              requirements that are unimplementable is
                              pragmatic  but we should not forget that
                              the healthcare system alleges to be
                              consumer centric, not software developer
                              centric.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">We
                              shouldn’t abandon appropriate principles
                              because it cost more to realize every time
                              we tackle this problem as a nation.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                              Josh Mandel [mailto:<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:Joshua.Mandel@childrens.harvard.edu"
                                target="_blank">Joshua.Mandel@childrens.harvard.edu</a>]
                              <br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:57
                              AM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> Aaron Seib; Adrian Gropper<br>
                              <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net"
                                target="_blank">openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-heart]
                              Principles for selecting "Vanilla" OAuth
                              vs. UMA</div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <p>It would be valuable to solicit input
                                in this discussion from software
                                developers who will actually be
                                implementing these services, or who have
                                implemented these services in the past.
                                The relative weight and merit of "KISS"
                                needs to be informed by the implementer
                                community. Otherwise we risk defining
                                principles that work great as principle
                                but lead to downstream implementation
                                pain. </p>
                              <p>For what it's worth, vanilla OAuth
                                certainly supports views of who's
                                authorized and the ability to revoke
                                access -- within one authorization
                                server at a time. And Adrian's
                                "principle T" could clearly be built in
                                a cross-AS way with vanilla OAuth
                                (essentially as a logging API where the
                                user specifies a logging endpoint). </p>
                              <p>Best, </p>
                              <p>Josh </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 30,
                                    2015, 08:39 Aaron Seib <<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:aaron.seib@nate-trust.org"
                                      target="_blank">aaron.seib@nate-trust.org</a>>
                                    wrote:</p>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote
                                  style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                  #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
                                  6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
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                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">+1
                                          Adrian.</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                          believe that the consumer
                                          should be able to go to a
                                          management portal and see who
                                          is authorized to access their
                                          data and be able to deactivate
                                          that access when they no
                                          longer want the relationship
                                          to exist.  </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                          have seen products that
                                          support this functionality
                                          today – not sure if it was
                                          OAuth only that supported it.</span></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Aaron
                                          Seib, CEO</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(o)
                                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="tel:301-540-2311"
                                            value="+13015402311"
                                            target="_blank">301-540-2311</a></span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(m)
                                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="tel:301-326-6843"
                                            value="+13013266843"
                                            target="_blank">301-326-6843</a></span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="http://nate-trust.org"
                                          target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;text-decoration:none"><img
src="cid:part12.09010909.09010501@mit.edu" border="0" height="48"
                                              width="205"></span></a></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="mailto:agropper@gmail.com"
                                            target="_blank">agropper@gmail.com</a>
                                          [mailto:<a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="mailto:agropper@gmail.com"
                                            target="_blank">agropper@gmail.com</a>]
                                          <b>On Behalf Of </b>Adrian
                                          Gropper<br>
                                          <b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 29,
                                          2015 10:02 PM<br>
                                          <b>To:</b> Aaron Seib<br>
                                          <b>Cc:</b> Josh Mandel; <a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="mailto:openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net"
                                            target="_blank">openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a><br>
                                          <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                          [Openid-specs-heart]
                                          Principles for selecting
                                          "Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA</span></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Also,
                                                  as we debate what KISS
                                                  actually means in
                                                  terms of HEART, please
                                                  allow me to propose a
                                                  second Principle.</p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>Principle
                                                  T - (T is for
                                                  Transparency) - Any
                                                  HEART transaction
                                                  between Client and
                                                  Resource Server that
                                                  includes individual
                                                  patient-level
                                                  information MUST post
                                                  a contemporaneous
                                                  accounting for
                                                  disclosures message to
                                                  any endpoint specified
                                                  by the patient.</b></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Please
                                              note that Accounting for
                                              Disclosures is required by
                                              HIPAA but has been widely
                                              ignored as "too hard" with
                                              legacy protocols. I hope
                                              that HEART use-cases
                                              related to HIPAA take this
                                              requirement to heart.
                                              There are various
                                              interpretations of
                                              Accounting for
                                              Disclosures. Some would
                                              require the patient to
                                              visit each resource server
                                              patient portal the way we
                                              check bank statements.
                                              Another interpretation
                                              would send the patient a
                                              simple notice the way many
                                              banks email you when a
                                              pre-authorized monthly
                                              payment is made. Most of
                                              us that are now signing
                                              into three or more banks a
                                              month to look at the
                                              register would agree that
                                              being able to set a notice
                                              address and a policy for
                                              when to be notified is a
                                              preferable and more
                                              scalable approach. </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">I suggest
                                            that we have to make
                                            "contemporaneous accounting
                                            for disclosures to any
                                            patient specified endpoint"
                                            a HEART principle and take
                                            that into account when we
                                            consider the complexity of
                                            profiling OAuth or profiling
                                            UMA for every use-case.</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                                Adrian</p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon,
                                            Jun 29, 2015 at 6:32 PM,
                                            Adrian Gropper <<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:agropper@healthurl.com"
                                              target="_blank">agropper@healthurl.com</a>>
                                            wrote:</p>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">+1
                                                  Aaron.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Here's a principle I
                                                  would suggest:</p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>Principle
                                                  A - If the Resource
                                                  Owner takes
                                                  responsibility for a
                                                  HEART transaction
                                                  between Client and
                                                  Resource Server, then
                                                  the transaction MUST
                                                  go through and the RS
                                                  gets a safe harbor.</b>
                                              </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Adrian</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">On
                                                    Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at
                                                    5:39 PM, Aaron Seib
                                                    <<a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:aaron.seib@nate-trust.org" target="_blank">aaron.seib@nate-trust.org</a>>
                                                    wrote:</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <blockquote
                                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                #cccccc
                                                1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                                0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Josh
                                                          – I almost
                                                          didn’t pick up
                                                          on your bias
                                                          but the
                                                          parenthetical
                                                          gave it away.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                                          almost always
                                                          agree that
                                                          starting with
                                                          the simplest
                                                          set of tools
                                                          first and
                                                          incrementally
                                                          expanding is
                                                          the best
                                                          approach but
                                                          the fact of
                                                          the matter is
                                                          that we did
                                                          this with
                                                          Direct and
                                                          said that
                                                          Direct is just
                                                          Transport and
                                                          the policy
                                                          enforcement
                                                          and
                                                          representation
                                                          of Patient
                                                          Privacy
                                                          Preferences
                                                          would emerge
                                                          as needed.  I
                                                          think Direct
                                                          has been
                                                          around as a
                                                          concept for
                                                          three or four
                                                          years now and
                                                          despite widely
                                                          broadcast
                                                          claims to the
                                                          contrary the
                                                          only use cases
                                                          that it is
                                                          frequently
                                                          used for are
                                                          the simplest –
                                                          like those you
                                                          can solve with
                                                          OAuth alone.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                                          am sure that
                                                          there is more
                                                          to consider
                                                          but as a
                                                          counter point
                                                          to your
                                                          somewhat
                                                          hidden bias I
                                                          would offer
                                                          another veiled
                                                          bias to not
                                                          repeat the
                                                          mistakes of
                                                          the past and
                                                          actually
                                                          accept that
                                                          someone has to
                                                          solve the hard
                                                          problems cause
                                                          there are not
                                                          that many easy
                                                          ones in
                                                          healthcare.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                                          would like to
                                                          suggest that
                                                          we rise to the
                                                          challenge and
                                                          pursue a path
                                                          that will have
                                                          a broader
                                                          impact with
                                                          this effort. 
                                                          If we are just
                                                          talking about
                                                          transport
                                                          between two
                                                          trusted end
                                                          points where
                                                          the users
                                                          already trust
                                                          one another I
                                                          think there is
                                                          a methodology
                                                          on hand to
                                                          handle that. 
                                                          What we need
                                                          is something
                                                          that can
                                                          handle a
                                                          little more
                                                          complexity.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                                          will take my
                                                          beatings from
                                                          the community
                                                          for speaking
                                                          out on this
                                                          issue if
                                                          everyone
                                                          thinks I am
                                                          nuts.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Aaron
                                                          Seib, CEO</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(o)
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:301-540-2311" target="_blank">301-540-2311</a></span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(m)
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:301-326-6843" target="_blank">301-326-6843</a></span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nate-2Dtrust.org&d=BQMFaQ&c=qS4goWBT7poplM69zy_3xhKwEW14JZMSdioCoppxeFU&r=c7b1QeR755-dBx2b0xnlepDTylromoEzcLl-6ixmBL3TpXSxSvtAvT553fzSgLpm&m=ryqH6CnV4EuvUczah4T-_bOvQ-k_dgfruhILdIbP-As&s=wEMNkvG4CHEP-h0wUM8o3RjqoJmPW_nF0iRLkXeVzbk&e="
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d;text-decoration:none"><img
src="cid:part21.08000203.08040302@mit.edu" border="0" height="48"
                                                          width="205"></span></a></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                                                          Openid-specs-heart
                                                          [mailto:<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openid-specs-heart-bounces@lists.openid.net"
                                                          target="_blank">openid-specs-heart-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>Josh
                                                          Mandel<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Monday, June
                                                          29, 2015 5:13
                                                          PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net"
target="_blank">openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          [Openid-specs-heart]
                                                          Principles for
                                                          selecting
                                                          "Vanilla"
                                                          OAuth vs. UMA</span></p>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">On today's call we discussed a use case where a
                                                          patient can
                                                          help connect
                                                          her patient
                                                          portal (a.k.a.
                                                          her EHR
                                                          account)
                                                          account to an
                                                          external PHR.
                                                          This is a
                                                          great, common
                                                          use case that
                                                          we know we
                                                          could handle
                                                          with either
                                                          "vanilla"
                                                          OAuth, or UMA,
                                                          or both. Of
                                                          course,
                                                          software
                                                          systems need
                                                          to know, up
                                                          front, whether
                                                          they'll be
                                                          talking
                                                          vanilla OAuth
                                                          or UMA --
                                                          because the
                                                          wire protocols
                                                          are different.</span></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">The question: When HEART encounters a use case
                                                          like this, by
                                                          which
                                                          principle(s)
                                                          we should
                                                          select vanilla
                                                          OAuth vs. UMA?
                                                          Some examples
                                                          of principles
                                                          (to stimulate
                                                          discussion)
                                                          might be:</span></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Example principle #1: "Do all the things"</span></b></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">We should produce two profiles each time this
                                                          kind of
                                                          situation
                                                          comes up: one
                                                          describing how
                                                          to do it with
                                                          vanilla OAuth,
                                                          and one
                                                          describing how
                                                          to do it with
                                                          UMA. This
                                                          provides
                                                          maximum
                                                          flexibility
                                                          for
                                                          implementers
                                                          with different
needs/contexts. </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Example principle #2: "KISS"</span></b></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Any time vanilla OAuth can handle a use case, we
                                                          should use
                                                          vanilla OAuth.
                                                          Save UMA for
                                                          when it's
                                                          required. This
                                                          provides a
                                                          simpler
                                                          environment
                                                          with fewer
                                                          moving parts
                                                          and stronger
                                                          out-of-the-box
                                                          software
                                                          library
                                                          support. </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Example principle #3: "UMA everywhere"</span></b></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Use UMA across the board, and avoid vanilla
                                                          OAuth. Since
                                                          UMA handles a
                                                          more general
                                                          set of use
                                                          cases, and
                                                          there's value
                                                          in
                                                          consolidation,
                                                          UMA should be
                                                          the preferred
                                                          option in all
                                                          cases. This
                                                          way,
                                                          implementers
                                                          only ever need
                                                          to do one
                                                          (very general)
                                                          thing.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">(I've tried to state these examples neutrally,
                                                          but I must
                                                          admit bias in
                                                          favor of #2.
                                                          Does that come
                                                          through?)</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Looking forward to discussion,</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">  -Josh</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
                                                  Openid-specs-heart
                                                  mailing list<br>
                                                  <a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">Openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a><br>
                                                  <a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openid.net_mailman_listinfo_openid-2Dspecs-2Dheart&d=BQMFaQ&c=qS4goWBT7poplM69zy_3xhKwEW14JZMSdioCoppxeFU&r=c7b1QeR755-dBx2b0xnlepDTylromoEzcLl-6ixmBL3TpXSxSvtAvT553fzSgLpm&m=ryqH6CnV4EuvUczah4T-_bOvQ-k_dgfruhILdIbP-As&s=LecIgXIFC9tivHNWP-gc4XTuasRZYGvNaV4ZFNFCnEg&e="
                                                    target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-heart</a></p>
                                              </blockquote>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                style="color:#888888"><br>
                                                <br clear="all">
                                                <br>
                                                -- </span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888">Adrian Gropper MD</span><span
                                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#888888"><br>
                                                  </span><span
                                                    style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#888888">Ensure
                                                    Health Information
                                                    Privacy. Support
                                                    Patient Privacy
                                                    Rights.<br>
                                                    <a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__patientprivacyrights.org_donate-2D2_&d=BQMFaQ&c=qS4goWBT7poplM69zy_3xhKwEW14JZMSdioCoppxeFU&r=c7b1QeR755-dBx2b0xnlepDTylromoEzcLl-6ixmBL3TpXSxSvtAvT553fzSgLpm&m=ryqH6CnV4EuvUczah4T-_bOvQ-k_dgfruhILdIbP-As&s=4hShFnNwgWw3-5xNU7OurqLFaHiaM9OneSrzGCWHmbw&e="
                                                      target="_blank">http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/</a></span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">  </span></u></p>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888"> </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                          <br clear="all">
                                          <br>
                                          -- </p>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Adrian
                                              Gropper MD<span
                                                style="font-size:7.5pt"><br>
                                              </span><span
                                                style="font-size:10.0pt">Ensure
                                                Health Information
                                                Privacy. Support Patient
                                                Privacy Rights.<br>
                                                <a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__patientprivacyrights.org_donate-2D2_&d=BQMFaQ&c=qS4goWBT7poplM69zy_3xhKwEW14JZMSdioCoppxeFU&r=c7b1QeR755-dBx2b0xnlepDTylromoEzcLl-6ixmBL3TpXSxSvtAvT553fzSgLpm&m=ryqH6CnV4EuvUczah4T-_bOvQ-k_dgfruhILdIbP-As&s=4hShFnNwgWw3-5xNU7OurqLFaHiaM9OneSrzGCWHmbw&e="
                                                  target="_blank">http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/</a><u><span
                                                    style="color:blue"> 
                                                  </span></u></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      _______________________________________________<br>
                      Openid-specs-heart mailing list<br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:Openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net"
                        target="_blank">Openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a><br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-heart"
                        rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-heart</a><br>
                      <br>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Openid-specs-heart mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net">Openid-specs-heart@lists.openid.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-heart">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-heart</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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