[Openid-specs-heart] Flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA

Thu Jul 9 15:07:20 UTC 2015

Eve,

You are right on… 

As one of the co-chairs of the HL7 Security wg, I have struggled with this. However in Healthcare we must keep moving forward. So the work in HL7 is to incrementally improve the ability to capture anything we can related to the act of consent, and the meaning of that consent. We recognize these as difficult domains. Historic precedent in healthcare is embarrassing.

In HL7 we have two different encodings. One is based on the format of a document used for all other medical-fact documentation (CDA). The format is not important, but it is important to indicate that it is a form that healthcare handles for almost everything related to the patient, so it is easy for them to handle it for this purpose too. It is a form however that is totally foreign to any access control decision system. We thus recognize that the rules might be ‘equivalently’ encoded in some access control decision language (common is XACML today). The equivalency is left to humans to agree… Thus the bridging of the divide between them is not computable, but we are trying.

The HL7 FHIR effort is just getting going, and for the most part will start with the same capability, just with different technical encoding. Still not necessarily fixing the big issue… But getting more processable (FHIR is predominantly HTTP/REST and encodes things in more simple XML or JSON; where as CDA is ugly XML).

The actual systems-design might have the Access Control rules interjected at the time that the patient gives consent; or might interpret the consent at the time of needing to make a decision. This is a systems-design responsibility that is not the role of HL7. There are good reasons to do either, especially since healthcare is a lifelong effort (so we think in 100+ years).

So, look to HL7 to help with capturing the ceremony of Consent. But they definitely need help with the Enforcement, we hope HEART can help with. AND we all need to work on everything in-between.

John

From: Openid-specs-heart [mailto:openid-specs-heart-bounces at lists.openid.net] On Behalf Of Eve Maler
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2015 9:47 AM
To: Kinsley, William
Cc: openid-specs-heart at lists.openid.net
Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-heart] Flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA

Hi Bill-- I'm not sure what the HL7 consent/contract standards are about, but based on what I know of "notice and consent" (privacy) theory, and "contract" (legal) theory (IANAL but I have collected lawyers for many years as part of my UMA work), there is not very much in the technical underpinnings of almost any technical or machine-readable consent flow used on the web today, to support a true non-adhesion contract for Alice. (Perhaps the closest thing on the OAuth side would be requiring an OAuth scope unchecking facility, but that's still not a formal mapping to a contract model -- has someone done that mapping?)

In the UMA group, with the help of Tim Reiniger (the primary drafter of the new Virginia digital identity law), we have recently started applying a "license" vs. a "contract" paradigm to the UMA flows. In fact, we're planning to discuss this on today's UMA call in a little over an hour.

I may be on the wrong track here, but this is what your note put me in mind of...

Eve Maler
ForgeRock Office of the CTO | VP Innovation & Emerging Technology
Cell +1 425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl
Join our ForgeRock.org OpenUMA <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__forgerock.org_openuma_&d=AwMFaQ&c=IV_clAzoPDE253xZdHuilRgztyh_RiV3wUrLrDQYWSI&r=B4hg7NQHul-cxfpT_e9Lh49ujUftqzJ6q17C2t3eI64&m=G5SLFEapI55EmVv6qepixkuIjAo8MIS-sDAtWeTMWBY&s=N6U-VffSODQM0Eo_2TrZgSe_XSZepWfJ14eAp4h6qGY&e=>  community!

On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Kinsley, William <BKinsley at nextgen.com> wrote:

I need Eva to verify that what I am saying is correct, I am still coming up to speed on UMA … HL7 has/is developing FHIR consent(contract) standards and I believe the oAuth and UMA profiles are in scope to support these and possibly others. 

To easily support interoperability, is it possible (or in scope) to develop profile standards or profile taxonomy that would be flexible and adaptable so that the RS would be able to process FHIR consents even if they are modified by a specific implementation without  special coding. This could be too idealistic, out of scope or just not supportable with oAuth and/or UMA profiles. 

For example: A client could connect to any FHIR resource and process any Heart Profile that is provided, even if the client is another RS running in a “Client” role to another RS .

Bill

From: Eve Maler [mailto:eve.maler at forgerock.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 10:00 PM
To: Aaron Seib
Cc: Kinsley, William; openid-specs-heart at lists.openid.net
Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-heart] Flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA

Commenting on one of Aaron's bulleted items:

Profiling "a standard way to label assets managed by the RS" is one of the tasks I was contemplating to be potentially in scope for our semantic UMA profile. This is because it is possible for resource set descriptions (these are things that an UMA RS registers at an AS, to put resources under protection) to include resource types. As I understand it, the FHIR API conveys data structures that reflect quite a lot of HL7 standardization work already done, which amounts to "resource typing".

While a lot of companies with proprietary APIs might not want to standardize their resource assets, there's a lot of power in standardized resource labeling in open ecosystems like the one we're working on. For starters, there's a security consideration <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.kantarainitiative.org_uma_rec-2Doauth-2Dresource-2Dreg-2Dv1-5F0.html-23rfc.section.4&d=AwMFaQ&c=IV_clAzoPDE253xZdHuilRgztyh_RiV3wUrLrDQYWSI&r=B4hg7NQHul-cxfpT_e9Lh49ujUftqzJ6q17C2t3eI64&m=G5SLFEapI55EmVv6qepixkuIjAo8MIS-sDAtWeTMWBY&s=XZvNdZZ9gPcuIcTPhPiiE_QBSahOHLBvTzItUZRdivI&e=>  that is mitigated by the use of "well-known and standardized" description elements. (See this UMA issue <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_xmlgrrl_UMA-2DSpecifications_issues_151&d=AwMFaQ&c=IV_clAzoPDE253xZdHuilRgztyh_RiV3wUrLrDQYWSI&r=B4hg7NQHul-cxfpT_e9Lh49ujUftqzJ6q17C2t3eI64&m=G5SLFEapI55EmVv6qepixkuIjAo8MIS-sDAtWeTMWBY&s=71o1AnmsYBp0TU9vvpx_TuaYsMN1txaagwxyDCElFnc&e=>  for some background.) For another example, standard types could drive automated policy workflows in interesting ways.

Eve Maler
ForgeRock Office of the CTO | VP Innovation & Emerging Technology
Cell +1 425.345.6756 <tel:%2B1%20425.345.6756>  | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl
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On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Aaron Seib <aaron.seib at nate-trust.org> wrote:

Thanks for starting this new thread.

I am not expert in this space (yet) but let me see if I can repeat back what I think you are proposing.  

Are you suggesting that for Resource Server (RS) be able to accept a standard profile authorization assertion (based on the UMA profile) from a standard (UMA-based) Authorization Server (AS)?   

I maybe out of date but I seem to remember reading that the UMA profile states that the Authorization Policy service capabilities (as required to implement an AS) are out of scope for the UMA profile - as are the specific policies for how you label assets (network, applications, data) managed by the RS with access tokens that are registered with and managed by the AS.  

To echo back your language is your suggestion that it ^would^ be simpler to have consistent patterns (libraries) implemented that would address what the UMA profile has intentionally said is out of scope?  I.e., 

·        addressing the need for a standard way to label assets managed by the RS; and (?) 

·        a standard way to represent the inputs to an Authorization Policy Service

In my mind this would allow us to not only solve the simple cases but also enable us to develop libraries that represent the applicable policy of a given Federal Reg or libraries of applicable state law that could be re-used by everyone.  It might also enable the different associations to provide recommended policies to be adopted by their members and plugged into the solution following a period of local policy tweaking by a given institution or Agency.

Am I getting this right?

Aaron Seib, CEO

@CaptBlueButton 

 (o) 301-540-2311

(m) 301-326-6843

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From: Openid-specs-heart [mailto:openid-specs-heart-bounces at lists.openid.net] On Behalf Of Kinsley, William
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 8:45 PM
To: openid-specs-heart at lists.openid.net
Subject: [Openid-specs-heart] Flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA

I am starting a new thread …  I think we need to flip the question of “Vanilla" OAuth vs. UMA”. I feel confident that we are going to discover use cases that cannot be supported by “Vanilla” OAuth or would be greatly simplified by using UMA. 

Maybe the real question to ask is:  Are there any augments (use case, technology restriction, cost, etc.) that justifies NOT using (requiring) UMA?

>From a interoperability, quality, security and development perspective, would it be simpler to have consistent patterns (libraries) implemented that are more likely to be “drop-in compatible” without source changes. While the standard itself would be considered rigid, it would be flexible by the use and implementation of the UMA profiles.     

The caveat here is the resource server (RS) would need to be able to accept/process a UMA profile without developing custom code to interpret it.  Would this require resource servers to adhere to a standard set of UMA profiles or a defined UMA profile taxonomy that could describe the healthcare consent models (if one exists)?

Bill

William Kinsley
Enterprise Architect, Ambulatory

NEXTGEN HEALTHCARE
Solutions for: Ambulatory, Inpatient and Community Connectivity
795 Horsham Road, Horsham, PA 19044
(215) 657-7010 x21128 <tel:%28215%29%20657-7010%20x21128>  [o]  
BKinsley at nextgen.com

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