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<div style="direction: ltr;">Dave,</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Iíll sync up with freddi today on this, but my initial comments are that Yes, thereís nothing stopping the Authorization url being generated as a QR code and this flow being a standard redirect however how would the auth code be
 returned back to the RP? 2.3.3 is designed for a kiosk type situation, youíd need the kiosk to have an input device as well to scan a AS mobile presented QR code to capture the redirect response? Apologies if Iím missing something. </div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">My concern with adding additional parameters rather than profiling the token is vendor support. We had the same issue when trying to find a solution that would work with existing vendor capability. If vendors are going to follow
 the spec as described and allow any attribute to be passed through and made available for process then great... typically Iíve seen that only the named parameter like login_token_hint etc or request_object be available for processing / profiling.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Iíd prefer to profile the token rather than introduce new parameters.</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="dir="ltr""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi-bounces@lists.openid.net> on behalf of Dave Tonge via Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 18, 2019 22:47<br>
<b>To:</b> Financial API Working Group List<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dave Tonge<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-fapi] OpenBanking CIBA flow / login_hint_token
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Hi Chris, Ralph and Joseph</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">So in the base spec we describe the flow where the bank generates a single use identifier (2.3.2 in the Customer Experience Guidelines).</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">I did have language attempting to describe the TPP generated identifier (2.3.3 - the flow described by Joseph), however we dropped the text as we felt it didn't quite fit into CIBA. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">2.3.1 and 2.3.4 are also supported out of the box by CIBA.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">To echo Joseph's point - couldn't the flow described in 2.3.3 be performed using links and a standard redirect flow. i.e. the TPP displays a QR code or link to which the user navigates to
 on their phone. This starts a standard redirect flow. The only limitation here is that not </div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">The separate point of where to pass the intent id is interesting. I'd strongly suggest that OB consider passing it as an extra parameter, rather than including it in to the login_hint_token.
 In CIBA core we have this phrase: <i>"An authentication request is composed of the following parameters and<b>MAY contain additional parameters defined by extension or profile</b>:"</i></div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Dave</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 09:29, Chris Michael via Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p>Thanks @Ralph</p>
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<p>@Joseph, please can we make sure the spec supports all 4 models/flows as per <a href="https://www.openbanking.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Customer-Experience-Guidelines-V1.3.0.pdf" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:16px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">https://www.openbanking.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Customer-Experience-Guidelines-V1.3.0.pdf</a><br>
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<p>While one of these does potentially allow a phishing vector, my preference would be to allow this but clearly call out the risk, as there are some use cases where the OP may chose to implement this.<br>
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<p style="font-size:16px"><strong>Chris Michael</strong><br>
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<p style="font-size:16px">Head of Technology<br>
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<p><font size="2">+44 7767 372277</font></p>
<p><font size="2"><a href="http://www.openbanking.org.uk" id="gmail-m_4287817308951702047NoLP" target="_blank">http://www.openbanking.org.uk</a></font></p>
<p><font size="2">2 Thomas More Square, London E1W 1YN</font></p>
<p><font size="2"><a href="https://twitter.com/UKOpenBanking" id="gmail-m_4287817308951702047NoLP" target="_blank" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font face="Calibri,sans-serif"><font color="#0563C1">Twitter</font></font></a><font face="Calibri,sans-serif" color="#1F497D" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> | </font><a href="https://www.facebook.com/UKOpenBanking" id="gmail-m_4287817308951702047NoLP" target="_blank" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font face="Calibri,sans-serif"><font color="#0563C1">Facebook</font></font></a><font face="Calibri,sans-serif" color="#1F497D" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> | </font><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/openbanking/" id="gmail-m_4287817308951702047NoLP" target="_blank" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font face="Calibri,sans-serif"><font color="#0563C1">LinkedIn</font></font></a></font></p>
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<div id="gmail-m_4287817308951702047divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>>
 on behalf of Ralph Bragg via Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 June 2019 07:48<br>
<b>To:</b> Financial API Working Group List<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ralph Bragg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-fapi] OpenBanking CIBA flow / login_hint_token</font>
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<div style="direction:ltr">Jospeh, yes sort of. The login hint token is meant to contain a user identified, either a previously used request/intent ID, a static user ID thatís pairwise bound to the client or worst case a static ID for the user.</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">This would facilitate a push (in the first two cases) and potentially a phishing Vector in the third.</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">If thereís no ďhintĒ then yes, a CIBA flow can be used in the way that you described however the QR code / thing to convey to the customer just needs to be a long / nonce intentid, the customer already knows the bank that they selected
 and all of the information should have been staged with the CIBA request this is sufficient to allow a customer to come and claim the CIBA initiated request. This flow is useful when youíre performing authN/authZ on two different devices. Mobile to mobile
 a redirect is much better. </div>
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<div id="gmail-m_4287817308951702047divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>>
 on behalf of Joseph Heenan via Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 17, 2019 7:22:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Openid-specs-fapi<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Joseph Heenan<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Openid-specs-fapi] OpenBanking CIBA flow / login_hint_token</font>
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<div>Hi all,
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<div>On the last call we talked about how the OpenBanking UK spec ( <a href="https://openbanking.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DZ/pages/1077805207/Read+Write+Data+API+Specification+-+v3.1.2#Read/WriteDataAPISpecification-v3.1.2-CIBA" target="_blank">
https://openbanking.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DZ/pages/1077805207/Read+Write+Data+API+Specification+-+v3.1.2#Read/WriteDataAPISpecification-v3.1.2-CIBA</a> ) uses the login_hint_token in CIBA.</div>
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<div>Dave raised a ticket thatís quite related ( <a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/fapi/issues/228/ciba-and-lodging-intent" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/fapi/issues/228/ciba-and-lodging-intent</a> ).</div>
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<div>I thought it would be useful to peopleís comprehension to draw out a sequence diagram of the OB CIBA flow, in particular the one that uses the login_hint_token to communicate intent, and uses a QR code to replace the login_hint_token as a way to identify
 the user, as I didnít understand how this worked when I first read the spec.</div>
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<div>Image of the flow is attached below. Note that it assumes the user has already setup the bankís mobile banking app on their phone and linked it to their account.</div>
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<div>This I believe relates to Ď2.3.3 model Cí on page 40 of <a href="https://www.openbanking.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Customer-Experience-Guidelines-V1.3.0.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.openbanking.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Customer-Experience-Guidelines-V1.3.0.pdf</a> -
 this has some pictures showing the flow from the viewpoint of the user.</div>
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<div>(I believe this is right, but If anyone from OB can confirm/deny Iím happy to make corrections. Iíve included both the image and the source plantuml)</div>
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<div>Thanks</div>
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<div>Joseph</div>
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<pre style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); font-family:Menlo; font-size:9pt"><span style="color:rgb(128,128,0)">@startuml<br></span><span style="color:rgb(128,128,0)"><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">title</span> Standard CIBA<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">autonumber</span> "<b>Step #: "<br><br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">box</span> "User Interactions" #LightBlue<br><span style="font-weight:bold">participant</span> Relying_Party as RP<br><span style="font-weight:bold">participant</span> Authentication_Device as AD<br>endbox<br><br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">box</span> "Bank" #LightGray<br><span style="font-weight:bold">participant</span> Authorization_Server as AS<br><span style="font-weight:bold">participant</span> Resource_Server as RS<br>endbox<br><br>RP->RP: User launches process<br><span style="color:rgb(128,128,128); font-style:italic">'RP->AS: client_credentials grant<br></span><span style="color:rgb(128,128,128); font-style:italic">'AS->RP: access_token_client<br></span><span style="color:rgb(128,128,128); font-style:italic">'RP->RS: Register intent using access_token_client<br></span><span style="color:rgb(128,128,128); font-style:italic">'RS->RP: indent_id</span><br>RP->AS: CIBA request<br>RP<-AS: auth_req_id<br>AS->AD: request user authenticates<br>...wait for user to approve...<br>AS<-AD: authentication approved<br>RP<-AS: CIBA ping notification<br>RP->AS: token request<br>RP<-AS: access_token<br>RP->RS: access transaction data using access_token<br><br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">autonumber</span> 1<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">newpage</span> OpenBanking UK version<br><span style="color:rgb(128,128,128); font-style:italic">' <a href="https://openbanking.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DZ/pages/1077805207/Read+Write+Data+API+Specification+-+v3.1.2#Read/WriteDataAPISpecification-v3.1.2-CIBA" target="_blank">https://openbanking.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DZ/pages/1077805207/Read+Write+Data+API+Specification+-+v3.1.2#Read/WriteDataAPISpecification-v3.1.2-CIBA</a></span><br>RP->RP: User launches process<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">group</span> OB Intent creation<br>RP->AS: client_credentials grant<br>AS->RP: access_token_client<br>RP->RS: Register intent using access_token_client<br>RS->RP: indent_id<br>RP->RP: <span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">create</span> login_hint_token: \n"IID", intent_id<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">end</span><br>RP->AS: CIBA request: login_hint_token<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">note right</span>: nothing in here identifies the user<br>RP<-AS: auth_req_id<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">group</span> OB <span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">link</span> user to request<br>RP->RP: display QR code containing\nintent_id, auth_req_id<br>AD->AD: user opens bank's mobile app<br>RP->AD: user scans QR code<br>AD<->AS: fetch authorisation details: auth_req_id, intent_id<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">note right</span>: Only here does AS know what\nuser it is authenticating<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,128); font-weight:bold">end</span><br>...wait for user to approve...<br>AS<-AD: authentication approved<br>RP<-AS: CIBA ping notification<br>RP->AS: token request<br>RP<-AS: access_token<br>RP->RS: access transaction data using access_token<br><br><span style="color:rgb(128,128,0)">@enduml<br></span></pre>
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