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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It sounds like the whole discussion on resource-id tends to call out, at least, for a metadata attribute allowing to specific the capabilities of the PDP in terms of
model support (ABAC, RBAC, ReBAC).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">What do you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Heavy",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Jean-François “<span style="color:#E97132">Jeff</span>” Lombardo</span></b><span style="mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">|<span style="color:gray">
</span><span style="color:#E97132">Amazon Web Services</span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:#E97132"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:4.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Architecte Principal de Solutions, Spécialiste de Sécurité<br>
Principal Solution Architect, Security Specialist<br>
Montréal, Canada<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Wingdings 2";mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">(</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">+1 514 778 5565<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Commentaires à propos de notre échange?
</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Exprimez-vous
</span></i><span style="mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/feedback.aws.amazon.com/?ea=jeffsec&fn=Jean*20Francois&ln=Lombardo__;JQ!!Pe07N362zA!0k9CkAV8Djpw_8EfIAKrbhP3TQrJr0oMnznlUgBJ3V3NoEk6hihx7dNHnQuejn6SSH2CP8Iow3G-tTzppHeg$"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:#467886">ici</span></i></a></span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:4.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">Thoughts on our interaction? Provide feedback
</span></i><span style="mso-ligatures:standardcontextual"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/feedback.aws.amazon.com/?ea=jeffsec&fn=Jean*20Francois&ln=Lombardo__;JQ!!Pe07N362zA!0k9CkAV8Djpw_8EfIAKrbhP3TQrJr0oMnznlUgBJ3V3NoEk6hihx7dNHnQuejn6SSH2CP8Iow3G-tTzppHeg$"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:#467886">here</span></i></a></span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Amazon Ember Light",sans-serif;color:gray;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual">.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Openid-specs-authzen <openid-specs-authzen-bounces@lists.openid.net>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Brossard via Openid-specs-authzen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> July 8, 2025 3:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> AuthZEN Working Group List <openid-specs-authzen@lists.openid.net><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Brossard <david.brossard@gmail.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXT] [Openid-specs-authzen] Notes from today's call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<h1 id="gmail-Meeting-Notes-2025-07-08">Meeting Notes 2025-07-08<o:p></o:p></h1>
<h2 id="gmail-Attendees">Attendees<o:p></o:p></h2>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">David Brossard <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Jeff Lombardo <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Alex Olivier <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Julio Auto De Medeiros <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Michiel Trimpe <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Rajiv Rajani <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Travis Farrell <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Vatsal Gupta <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">George Fletcher <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Gerry Gebel <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Victor Lu <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">Alex Babeanu <o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<h2 id="gmail-Agenda">Agenda<o:p></o:p></h2>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2">Schedule for this call going forward
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2">resource_id conclusions <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2">Pagination pull request #341 <o:p>
</o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2">More open issues to discuss <o:p>
</o:p></li></ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level2 lfo2">278 Inconsistent use of reason<span class="gmail-smartypants">…</span>
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level2 lfo2">268 Security section needs details on Client AuthN failure
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level2 lfo2">250 Deny_on_first_deny<span class="gmail-smartypants">…</span> examples are cumbersome
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level2 lfo2">230 Search API statistics needed
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level2 lfo2">55 Sign access decision? <o:p>
</o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level2 lfo2">46 and 47 Device ID and IP address
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2">AuthZEN briefings for Forrester and KuppingerCole
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<h2 id="gmail-Notes">Notes<o:p></o:p></h2>
<h3 id="gmail-Agenda-Suggestion">Agenda Suggestion<o:p></o:p></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Keep the 11am PT as is and switch the 3pm PT to a time more amenable to Europe. We need to check with APAC folks (Dave H.) whether that's ok and what times would work for them.
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo3">On the current call 4 of 9 individuals are in the European time zones (CET and BST)
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<h3 id="gmail-Resource-ID-Conclusion">Resource ID Conclusion<o:p></o:p></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">See <a href="https://github.com/openid/authzen/issues/329" target="_blank">
https://github.com/openid/authzen/issues/329</a><o:p></o:p></li><li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">We want to keep resource ID mandatory for the time being<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">All interops assumed mandatory resource IDs
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">Graph implementations require resource ID
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">Could we make the resource ID a SHOULD rather than a MUST?
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">Could we make 2 sets of interops? One that requires the identifier and one that 'SHOULD's the interop?
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">Jeff suggests we're here to create a standard that facilitates integrations and that as a result, we should make resource ID a SHOULD.<o:p></o:p></li><li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">We need to ask graph implementers why a mandatory resource ID is necessary.<o:p></o:p></li><li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">Do we need to invite Alex B, Omri, and Michael Krotscheck to present their views?<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">We need ReBAC examples <o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">Possible wording: if a resource identifier is present, it MUST be passed into the AuthZEN request as the resource
<code><span style="font-size:10.0pt">id</span></code>.<o:p></o:p></li><li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">Alex Babeanu explained that we need a resource ID in graph-based systems<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">George and David both pointed out that using resource ID to represent the parent is overloading semantics
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">Ideally we'd use a <code><span style="font-size:10.0pt">parent</span></code> or
<code><span style="font-size:10.0pt">next-of-kin</span></code> identifier in the creation cases.
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l5 level2 lfo4">Jeff/Michiel suggest using the properties object
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo4">We need to call a dedicated meeting to solve the issue and move forward with the standardization of 1.0 (Fall '25')<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<h3 id="gmail-Pagination-pull-request-341">Pagination pull request 341<o:p></o:p></h3>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l4 level1 lfo5">All to review <a href="https://github.com/openid/authzen/pull/341" target="_blank">
https://github.com/openid/authzen/pull/341</a> <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l4 level1 lfo5">Michiel and Omri added comments. Michiel agrees with Omri that adding obligations is confusing
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l4 level1 lfo5">The work should be split across 2 PRs
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l4 level2 lfo5">Pagination work <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l4 level2 lfo5">Context work <o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<h3 id="gmail-Analyst-Briefings">Analyst Briefings<o:p></o:p></h3>
<h4 id="gmail-Forrester-Briefing-Gerry-amp-Andras-Cser">Forrester Briefing (Gerry & Andras Cser)<o:p></o:p></h4>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l6 level1 lfo6">Forrester is interested in writing more on new standards and possibly hosting interops
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l6 level1 lfo6">Gerry will let the group know when Forrester is ready to move forward
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<h4 id="gmail-Kuppinger-Cole">Kuppinger Cole<o:p></o:p></h4>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">Gerry has another briefing with Nitish from KC
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">David will post the <a href="https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/openid-authzen-analyst-briefing-july-2025/281411886" target="_blank">
slides</a> for the briefing to Slideshare for all to get access to<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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