<div dir="auto">Yup. That was the case. I tried to reopen the bridge but that meant the othe WG will be ended. Something to be looked at. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">2025年4月5日(土) 2:10 Brian Campbell via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">FWIW my understanding is that the meeting ended abruptly due to the start of a different WG's meeting and how the OIDF zoom account is set up. <br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 11:05 AM Samuel Rinnetmäki via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FI" style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FI" style="font-size:11pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FI" style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">IMHO, the discussion on Thursday’s meeting was great.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">I think all views were well reasoned and I found it easy to relate with all viewpoints. Everyone was “right” and it’s understandable that the discussion may end up being
a little emotional. (I’m not encouraging ad hominem attacks or unpolite behaviour, but I understand that it’s sometimes hard to keep calm when you deeply care about the subject.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">At the end of the meeting, I raised my hand, but the meeting ended before I got a chance to speak. I would have liked to state that while I see value in Mike’s wish
to keep the same syntax of client identifiers across the specs, having both prefixed and non-prefixed identifiers in OID4VP hurts developer experience more than having identifiers prefixed in OID4VP and non-prefixed in OpenID Federation. (OpenID Federation
doesn’t need prefixes, OID4VP does. If some identifiers are prefixed in a spec, they all should be.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">For that reason, I gave a thumbs-up to Aaron’s proposal scribed by Kristina in the issue 401 of the OID4VP spec (<a href="https://github.com/openid/OpenID4VP/pull/401#issuecomment-2776912290" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://github.com/openid/OpenID4VP/pull/401#issuecomment-2776912290</a>).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt"> Samuel
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:NEUEHAASDISPLAY-MEDIU;color:rgb(12,2,66)">Samuel Rinnetmäki<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"NeueHaasGroteskDisp Pro",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,2,66)">CTO<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"NeueHaasGroteskDisp Pro",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,2,66)">Findynet Cooperative<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"NeueHaasGroteskDisp Pro",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,2,66)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>> on behalf of Joe DeCock via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 3. April 2025 at 19.30<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a> <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Joe DeCock <<a href="mailto:joe@duendesoftware.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">joe@duendesoftware.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Openid-specs-ab] Meeting Minutes for April 3rd<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"># Connect/AB Minutes for April 3, 2025<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span>## Attendees</span><br>
<span>Michael Jones, Chair</span><br>
Nat Sakimura, Chair<br>
<span>Joe DeCock, Notetaker</span><br>
<span>Aaron Parecki</span><br>
<span>Andy Barlow</span><br>
<span>Brian Campbell</span><br>
<span>Chris Phillips</span><br>
<span>Daniel Fett</span><br>
<span>Dick Hardt</span><br>
<span>Filip Skokan</span><br>
<span>Joseph Heenan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Łukasz Jaromin<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Marcus Almgren<br>
Samuel Rinnetmäki<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Stefan Santesson</span><br>
<span>Tim Cappalli</span><br>
<br>
<span>## Events</span><br>
<span>### OpenID Workshop and IIW, Apr 7-10, Mountain View, California</span><br>
<span> - <a href="https://internetidentityworkshop.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://internetidentityworkshop.com/</a></span><br>
<span> - <a href="https://openid.net/attend-the-oidf-workshop-prior-to-iiw-spring-2025-on-7th-april-2025/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://openid.net/attend-the-oidf-workshop-prior-to-iiw-spring-2025-on-7th-april-2025/</a></span><br>
<span>### OpenID Federation Interop, April 28-30, hosted by SUNET in Stockholm</span><br>
<span> - Sign up in the attendee spreadsheet: <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zYl-wdzgyol9u3ho342GZhSsg0hhqqneJHlMXWJSIw0/edit?gid=25633585#gid=25633585" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zYl-wdzgyol9u3ho342GZhSsg0hhqqneJHlMXWJSIw0/edit?gid=25633585#gid=25633585</a></span><br>
<span> - Run the Federation Certification Tests: <a href="https://openid.net/certification/federation_testing/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://openid.net/certification/federation_testing/</a></span><br>
<br>
<span>## Coordination between DCP and Connect WGs on Client ID Values</span><br>
<span>### Background</span><br>
<span>- OpenID4VP's Client IDs and OpenID Federation's Client IDs are currently compatible</span><br>
<span>- An OpenID4VP PR has proposed prefixing OpenID Federation Client ID values, which would be a breaking change to OpenID Federation</span><br>
<span>- An OpenID4VP PR-on-that-PR has proposed making the prefix optional, which would make it a non-breaking change</span><br>
<span>- Joseph Heenan filed an OpenID Federation issue discussing the situation and possible choices</span><br>
<span>- Chairs wanted to coordinate across the working groups to prevent incompatibility</span><br>
<span>### Discussion</span><br>
<span>- Brian: Original PR is aiming for consistency within OpenID4VP, and has exceptions for this use case. He raises process concerns.</span><br>
- Joseph: Goal is consistency across OpenID's various specifications.<br>
- Aaron: Asks a layering question: What are the dependencies between Connect, Federation, and OpenID4VP? Is it the case that VP has the most dependencies?<br>
<span>- Daniel: VP and Federation are siblings.</span><br>
<span>- Brian: That's true, but there is a complex relationship between VP and Federation.</span><br>
- Aaron: In that case, VP should be consistent within itself. Non-VP usage shouldn't break if VP changes internally, and so he intends to retract his PR.<br>
- Daniel: Agree, other specs might run into the same thing, specs should be internally consistent.<br>
<span>- Mike: Goal is that you should be able to use VP and Federation together. Data structures are shared across working groups, so coordination is warranted.
</span><br>
- Mike: Also very important to define Client IDs unambiguously. Brian's PR makes the Client IDs ambiguous. Aaron's PR makes the Client IDs unambiguous. Asks Aaron to not withdraw his PR.<br>
- Daniel Fett: Problem comes from multiple specs having different needs, and this will be a recurring problem.<br>
- Joseph: In real world, https can mean different things. Https probably is not going to be reserved by OAuth for Federation, so they're going to be ambiguous.<br>
- Brian: https is unambiguous only within Federation. In real deployments, it is not.<br>
- Łukasz: We should avoid making client identifiers deployment-specific. Aaron's PR helps with that.
<br>
- Dick: Client IDs having implied meaning is contrary to the original OAuth spec.<br>
- Aaron: OAuth 2.1 updates the Client ID definition.<br>
- Mike: "In the real world" should not constrain us. In fact it's the other way around - our standards exist to constrain what people do. Things should be unambiguous *when people use our standards*. That's the purpose of standards. If you follow the specs,
you get unambiguous Client IDs.<br>
- Mike: OAuth leaves Client ID semantics up to profiles, and the profiles can make some treatment of Client IDs and still be compatible. But different Client ID syntax for different contexts will lead to developers making mistakes and would be a failure on
our part.<br>
- Aaron: Has a proposal that doesn't agree with Mike's assessment: Require prefix in VP, and define Client IDs in Federation as using https. The inconsistency doesn't seem like a big deal, doesn't agree that it is a failure that they are different.<br>
- Stefan and Aaron: Root of the problem is, how do you find metadata? Ambiguity means that there's more than 1 way to get the metadata.<br>
- Joseph: What should Federation do? Do we want to change to make Federation's Client IDs unambiguous?<br>
- Mike: They already are unambiguous. The problem is that differing syntax between the workgroups would mean that the Client ID is confusing.<br>
- Aaron: Wallets and Federation are very separate, users of the two specs are separate, so there's not much risk of confusion.<br>
- Mike: No, you can use Federation for trust establishment, e.g., the Italian deployment uses them together.<br>
- Dick: Reiterates that Client IDs were originally opaque.<br>
- Brian: Supports Aaron's proposal, and if we want consistency in Federation, then Federation might need to change, but he has not suggested that because ...<br>
<br>
Here the meeting's Zoom call ended abruptly for unknown reasons.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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