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<p class="MsoNormal">I support the adoption. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">C.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Openid-specs-ab <openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net> on behalf of Michael Jones via Openid-specs-ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, August 20, 2024 at 1:15</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Michael Jones <michael_b_jones@hotmail.com>, Nat Sakimura <nat@sakimura.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation Wallet Architectures 1.0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:powderblue"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:cornflowerblue">External
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">This email originated from outside the organization. Use caution when following links as they could open malicious web sites.</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Adding the information to this thread that the authors contributed an updated specification incorporating feedback received during the adoption call, as described at
<a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010394.html">
https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010394.html</a>. We expect this contribution to be discussed during the next working group call on Thursday.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> -- Mike</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Kristina Yasuda <yasudakristina@gmail.com>
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<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 19, 2024 7:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net><br>
<b>Cc:</b> torsten@lodderstedt.net; Michael Jones <michael_b_jones@hotmail.com>; Nat Sakimura <nat@sakimura.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation Wallet Architectures 1.0</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">I missed the part that you are trying to address concerns by moving problematic sections to the informative annex, sorry. That is confusing to say the least. Please remove those sections entirely.
They should either be normative or not be in the specifications.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Also, please add an explicit out of scope section saying that there is no intention to define openid4vc parameter extensions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Best, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Kristina<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 4:06</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">PM Kristina Yasuda <<a href="mailto:yasudakristina@gmail.com">yasudakristina@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">It is honestly confusing that there are two thread happening on the same topic, one following the minutes (another one) and another following call for adoption announcement (this one).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">So I copy my comment on another email thread here, too:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Can you please explain how your updated draft addresses any of Joseph's comments?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010370.html" target="_blank">https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010370.html<br>
</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">With all respect, but just adding a scope section that it is a profile of an OpenID Federation does not make it less of a profile of OpenID4VC specs without removing any of the sections that have
been pointed out to be problematic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Kristina<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 6:01</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">AM Michael Jones via Openid-specs-ab
<<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi Torsten,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Per the <a href="https://peppelinux.github.io/federation-wallet/main.html#name-scope" target="_blank">
Scope section of the document</a> that we added at Nat’s suggestion, the specification is first and foremost a profile of OpenID Federation. The experts on Federation are in the OpenID Connect working group, which is why the document was contributed there.
Also as described in the Scope section, we intend to work with the DCP working group to define metadata parameters in the OpenID4VC specs when they would be applicable both without and with Federation. Also, see
<a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010395.html" target="_blank">
my response to Kristina</a>, which describes that the spec no longer defines any metadata parameters.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hopefully this alleviates any concerns you had.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> Best wishes,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> -- Mike</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a> <<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 13, 2024 9:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Michael Jones <<a href="mailto:michael_b_jones@hotmail.com" target="_blank">michael_b_jones@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation Wallet Architectures 1.0</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Am 10. Aug. 2024, 23:47 +0200 schrieb Michael Jones via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi all, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">I don’t support adoption of this document in the Connect WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><cut><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The gist of the discussion then was that the spec records what the Italian wallet deployment is actually doing and so it is useful to have these things written down now to enable interoperable implementations of them
(which did make it into the notes).</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Having a write up is very useful. However, I think a whitepaper or blog post would be the appropriate format for that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Writing a spec to allow for interoperability is something different. It requires discussions with other implementers to find a common ground, which brings me to my next point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">This draft defines extensions to the OID4VP and OID4VCI spec, something I would feel more comfortable with in the DCP WG simply because that’s were expertise and implementers of OID4VC are. Also,
some of the proposed extensions were proposed to the DCP WG already but haven’t been adopted (yet). So it feels like this draft tries to create facts without a WG discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Content wise, I‘m wondering why the specification includes a token endpoint for the wallet provider. It seems it is used to issue wallet attestations. I think wallet instance to wallet provider
communication is not related to interoperability, the design should be left at the wallet provider’s discretion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Torsten.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">People on the call also expressed agreement with Joseph’s written feedback that metadata values that are in the contributed draft that are more generally applicable should be moved to the appropriate OpenID4VC specs and
then deleted from the Federation Wallet spec. But no one on the call expressed the opinion that having written them down in the contributed spec before their inclusion in other specifications should block consideration of adopting the contribution as-is now.
The call was well attended, with 14 people participating, and no one expressed reservations with starting the call for adoption.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Joseph helpfully provided specifics on what metadata values he would suggest moving to other specifications and other clarifications that could be applied in
<a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010370.html" target="_blank">
his message</a> before the Thursday, August 8<sup>th</sup> call. We discussed that additional feedback on that call, as recorded in
<a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010371.html" target="_blank">
the notes</a>. Giuseppe took the action item to reply to the call for adoption enumerating the existing OpenID4VC issues about the metadata values currently specified in the Federation Wallet contribution, which if resolved, would result in them being added
to the appropriate places in the OpenID4VC specs. And he agreed to file new OpenID4VC issues to fill any gaps identified in what it would take to define these metadata values there.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I agree with Joseph that future versions of the spec should be clearer about what is new normative text and what is repeating already normative text in other specifications.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kristina wrote: “</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Please do not adopt this draft until all the changes that define OpenID4VP or OpenID4VCI parameters that are not currently defined in those specs right
now are removed from this document.</span><span lang="EN-US">” Speaking as an individual, this is a point where reasonable people can and do hold different positions. Having them written down now for interoperability purposes is useful. Moving the definitions
of them to other specifications where they are also applicable would be good. There’s agreement on that. But whether adoption of the spec containing their current descriptions should be blocked by not having first incorporated them into other specifications
– a process that could take a while – is a fair question.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Finally, I’ll observe that using Federation for trust establishment in wallet ecosystems (the purpose of the draft) necessary involves topics pertinent to both the Connect and DCP working groups, so coordination and collaboration
will be required. The good news is that that practical coordination happens by having individuals active in both working groups do so, and there are numerous individuals active in both. (For what it’s worth, developing important specifications in coordination
across multiple working groups and organizations isn’t new for the OpenID Foundation. Developing OpenID Connect involved participants working together in all of the Connect, OAuth, and JOSE working groups.)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks all for your attention to these important topics!</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> -- Mike</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of</b> Joseph Heenan via Openid-specs-ab<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 9, 2024 1:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Joseph Heenan <<a href="mailto:joseph@authlete.com" target="_blank">joseph@authlete.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation Wallet Architectures 1.0</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Thanks Kristina!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Just to reply to a specific point:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">On 9 Aug 2024, at 13:14, Kristina Yasuda via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Moreover, in the minutes of a Connect WG call that happened after Joseph's email with not supporting adoption say "[Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation Extended
Subordinate Listing 1.0 All respondents so far support adoption", which could have been an oversight, but please be precise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">There’s unfortunately two different calls for adoption for Federation extensions right now which I think has caused confusion - I’m happy that my feedback was correctly record in yesterday’s minutes
at <a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010371.html" target="_blank">https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010371.html</a> and I’m pleased to see that Giuseppe plans to look into them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
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