<div dir="ltr">Hi All,<div>It is honestly confusing that there are two thread happening on the same topic, one following the minutes (another one) and another following call for adoption announcement (this one).<br><div>So I copy my comment on another email thread here, too:</div><div><br></div><div>Can you please explain how your updated draft addresses any of Joseph's comments?</div><div><a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010370.html" target="_blank">https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010370.html<br></a></div><div><br></div><div>With all respect, but just adding a scope section that it is a profile of an OpenID Federation does not make it less of a profile of OpenID4VC specs without removing any of the sections that have been pointed out to be problematic.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Kristina</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 6:01 AM Michael Jones via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi Torsten,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Per the <a href="https://peppelinux.github.io/federation-wallet/main.html#name-scope" target="_blank">
Scope section of the document</a> that we added at Nat’s suggestion, the specification is first and foremost a profile of OpenID Federation. The experts on Federation are in the OpenID Connect working group, which is why the document was contributed there.
Also as described in the Scope section, we intend to work with the DCP working group to define metadata parameters in the OpenID4VC specs when they would be applicable both without and with Federation. Also, see
<a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010395.html" target="_blank">
my response to Kristina</a>, which describes that the spec no longer defines any metadata parameters.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hopefully this alleviates any concerns you had.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a> <<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 13, 2024 9:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Michael Jones <<a href="mailto:michael_b_jones@hotmail.com" target="_blank">michael_b_jones@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation Wallet Architectures 1.0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Am 10. Aug. 2024, 23:47 +0200 schrieb Michael Jones via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>:<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(26,188,156);padding:0in 0in 0in 8pt;margin:3.75pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi all, </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t support adoption of this document in the Connect WG.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><cut><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(26,188,156);padding:0in 0in 0in 8pt;margin:3.75pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">The gist of the discussion then was that the spec records what the Italian wallet deployment is actually doing and so it is useful to have these things
written down now to enable interoperable implementations of them (which did make it into the notes).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Having a write up is very useful. However, I think a whitepaper or blog post would be the appropriate format for that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Writing a spec to allow for interoperability is something different. It requires discussions with other implementers to find a common ground, which brings me to my next point.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This draft defines extensions to the OID4VP and OID4VCI spec, something I would feel more comfortable with in the DCP WG simply because that’s were expertise and implementers of OID4VC are. Also, some of the proposed extensions were proposed
to the DCP WG already but haven’t been adopted (yet). So it feels like this draft tries to create facts without a WG discussion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Content wise, I‘m wondering why the specification includes a token endpoint for the wallet provider. It seems it is used to issue wallet attestations. I think wallet instance to wallet provider communication is not related to interoperability,
the design should be left at the wallet provider’s discretion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Torsten.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(26,188,156);padding:0in 0in 0in 8pt;margin:3.75pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">People on the call also expressed agreement with Joseph’s written feedback that metadata values that are in the contributed draft that are more generally
applicable should be moved to the appropriate OpenID4VC specs and then deleted from the Federation Wallet spec. But no one on the call expressed the opinion that having written them down in the contributed spec before their inclusion in other specifications
should block consideration of adopting the contribution as-is now. The call was well attended, with 14 people participating, and no one expressed reservations with starting the call for adoption.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Joseph helpfully provided specifics on what metadata values he would suggest moving to other specifications and other clarifications that could be
applied in <a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010370.html" target="_blank">
his message</a> before the Thursday, August 8<sup>th</sup> call. We discussed that additional feedback on that call, as recorded in
<a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010371.html" target="_blank">
the notes</a>. Giuseppe took the action item to reply to the call for adoption enumerating the existing OpenID4VC issues about the metadata values currently specified in the Federation Wallet contribution, which if resolved, would result in them being added
to the appropriate places in the OpenID4VC specs. And he agreed to file new OpenID4VC issues to fill any gaps identified in what it would take to define these metadata values there.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I agree with Joseph that future versions of the spec should be clearer about what is new normative text and what is repeating already normative text
in other specifications.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Kristina wrote: “</span>Please do not adopt this draft until all the changes that define OpenID4VP or OpenID4VCI parameters that are not currently defined
in those specs right now are removed from this document.<span style="font-size:11pt">” Speaking as an individual, this is a point where reasonable people can and do hold different positions. Having them written down now for interoperability purposes is
useful. Moving the definitions of them to other specifications where they are also applicable would be good. There’s agreement on that. But whether adoption of the spec containing their current descriptions should be blocked by not having first incorporated
them into other specifications – a process that could take a while – is a fair question.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Finally, I’ll observe that using Federation for trust establishment in wallet ecosystems (the purpose of the draft) necessary involves topics pertinent
to both the Connect and DCP working groups, so coordination and collaboration will be required. The good news is that that practical coordination happens by having individuals active in both working groups do so, and there are numerous individuals active
in both. (For what it’s worth, developing important specifications in coordination across multiple working groups and organizations isn’t new for the OpenID Foundation. Developing OpenID Connect involved participants working together in all of the Connect,
OAuth, and JOSE working groups.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thanks all for your attention to these important topics!</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b>
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of</b> Joseph Heenan via Openid-specs-ab<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 9, 2024 1:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Joseph Heenan <<a href="mailto:joseph@authlete.com" target="_blank">joseph@authlete.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation Wallet Architectures 1.0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Kristina!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just to reply to a specific point:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 9 Aug 2024, at 13:14, Kristina Yasuda via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Moreover, in the minutes of a Connect WG call that happened after Joseph's email with not supporting adoption say "[Openid-specs-ab] Call for Working Group Adoption of OpenID Federation
Extended Subordinate Listing 1.0 All respondents so far support adoption", which could have been an oversight, but please be precise.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There’s unfortunately two different calls for adoption for Federation extensions right now which I think has caused confusion - I’m happy that my feedback was correctly record in
yesterday’s minutes at <a href="https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010371.html" target="_blank">https://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2024-August/010371.html</a> and I’m pleased to see that Giuseppe plans to look into them.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Joseph<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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