<div dir="ltr">While I agree there are important differences between VCs and earlier tech, there are a couple of things I believe are worth clarifying:<div><br><div><ul><li>Cards were never sent to be signed anywhere. They came down already signed at issuance time.<br>Cards contained a template of the info that could be obtained from a particular issuer, and at presentation time were used for formatting a (ws-trust) request for whatever subset of info the user consented to disclose (if the RP marked some requested claims optional and the issuer elected to comply). What was signed was a SAML token carrying the requested claims, not the card itself.<br>Yes, the outcome was that the resulting artifact (the SAML token) had no binding to the holder... <b>when using cards with websites</b>. When using cards with API, the resulting tokens did use proof of possession as part of the WS-Trust/WS-Security wizardry happening in there, and someone deep enough in WCF (or whatever other client stack implementing WS-*) could have technically injected a holder specific key instead of the default (negotiated on the fly). <u>Not that it makes any practical difference</u>, that's only to say that if there would have been a strong demand for it, it would have been technically feasible - not to speak of the higgins and u-prove extensions that could have probably been tortured to similar effect.</li><li>The Information Card Foundation (MS, Google, Oracle, PayPal, Equifax etc) was established mid-June 2008. Apple introduced the iPhone in January 2007, and by that point Blackberries, Symbian, Windows Mobile were all well known and established enough to appear in mainstream media (google Crackberry).<br>That is of course nowhere near the complete ubiquity mobile devices achieved today, but they were definitely mainstream by any reasonable business definition, as in, WAY more units sold than VR headsets today just to make a concrete example. That means that applications targeting businesses could profitably target the platform, and they did (Exchange + Blackberry was a big deal).<br>Things were different from the consumer side, but perhaps not as much as one might think. CardSpace was discontinued (e.g. announcement that CardSpace 2 was cancelled) in 2011. The "There's an App for That" Apple ad is from 2009. Fruit Ninja was released shortly after. Evernote mobile launched in 2008 and by the time CardSpace was discontinued it had more than 10M users (and a very cool headquarter, I visited during that time). Profitably targeting mobile consumers was definitely feasible. </li></ul></div><div>For RFC7800... proof of possession is <a href="https://www.cloudidentity.com/blog/2008/01/02/on-prooftokens/">way older</a>. As mentioned above, CardSpace did use it (if you didn't throw the book after reading it, see page 261). </div><div>But to stress, I do agree that comparing VCs and information cards without specifying what aspects are being considered (jobs to be done vs expressive power vs privacy properties etc etc) is tricky as it might lead to shallow conclusions. </div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 3:44 PM Kristina Yasuda <<a href="mailto:Kristina.Yasuda@microsoft.com">Kristina.Yasuda@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div dir="ltr">I’ve read entire windows cardspace book to be able to respond to these kind of conversations.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Cardspace/infocards did a great job setting out principles including user centricity. But in terms of technology, these are few important differences. One is cryptographic holder binding - holder being able to sign a presentation using a key
signed over by the issuer. Infocards were either only self signed or sent to the issuer to be signed real-time (ie no direct presentation of issuer signed cards from the holder to the verifier).</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Also infocards were before smartphones were even invented/became mainstream ;)</div>
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<div dir="ltr">If we are talking about similarities, Verifiable credentials are much more similar to cnf claim RFC7800 than infocards.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Best,</div>
<div dir="ltr">Kristina</div>
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<div id="m_6587341406912560198divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>> on behalf of Nikos Fotiou via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 11, 2023 2:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Vittorio Bertocci' <<a href="mailto:vittorio.bertocci@okta.com" target="_blank">vittorio.bertocci@okta.com</a>>; 'Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group' <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nikos Fotiou <<a href="mailto:fotiou@aueb.gr" target="_blank">fotiou@aueb.gr</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] SIOP and webauthn
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<span lang="EN-US">I read Vittorio’s description and I came up with the attached meme. Probably inaccurate but the resemblance in terminology cannot be ignored.
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<b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Vittorio Bertocci <<a href="mailto:vittorio.bertocci@okta.com" target="_blank">vittorio.bertocci@okta.com</a>>
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<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 12, 2023 12:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nikos Fotiou <<a href="mailto:fotiou@aueb.gr" target="_blank">fotiou@aueb.gr</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] SIOP and webauthn</span></p>
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Thank you :)</p>
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Information cards were an interoperable format representing the ability of a user to obtain a certain set of claims form a given issuer. The self issued cards mentioned above were cards sourcing claims from the client itself rather than an external issuer.</p>
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Cardspace was the Windows client that was capable of working with information cards.</p>
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HTH</p>
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On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 13:59 Nikos Fotiou via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p><strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This message originated outside your organization.</span></strong></p>
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Sorry for asking but is “information cards“ and cardspace the same thing? FWIW I found this episode of Identity Unlocked about cardspace very educative </p>
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<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fidentityunlocked.auth0.com*2Fpublic*2F49*2FIdentity*252C-Unlocked.--bed7fada*2F61103d3d&data=05*7C01*7CKristina.Yasuda*40microsoft.com*7C2ebb96788524449590a908db22838563*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C638141721598033544*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=SQNiSl6DF7L55BMNEQj8N1RIcRU3ieDl3FlqikCZH90*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!PwKahg!7ZojPT6XOi5H_tKkgw5tO07ZHZe60-UILP4eaC_UoziqzsRDB070riSNvubcEUZfcbB2FHT-dLZBdbcA1KHVCrBWDHF__G45fg$" target="_blank"><span style="color:black;text-decoration:none">Windows
CardSpace with Stuart Kwan</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fidentityunlocked.auth0.com*2Fpublic*2F49*2FIdentity*252C-Unlocked.--bed7fada*2F61103d3d&data=05*7C01*7CKristina.Yasuda*40microsoft.com*7C2ebb96788524449590a908db22838563*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C638141721598033544*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=SQNiSl6DF7L55BMNEQj8N1RIcRU3ieDl3FlqikCZH90*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!PwKahg!7ZojPT6XOi5H_tKkgw5tO07ZHZe60-UILP4eaC_UoziqzsRDB070riSNvubcEUZfcbB2FHT-dLZBdbcA1KHVCrBWDHF__G45fg$" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(162,162,169);text-decoration:none">identityunlocked.auth0.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"></span></p>
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11 Μαρ 2023, 10:26 μμ, ο χρήστης «Mike Jones via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>» έγραψε:</p>
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SIOP standardization was completed in 2014 <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fopenid.net*2Fspecs*2Fopenid-connect-core-1_0.html*23SelfIssued&data=05*7C01*7CKristina.Yasuda*40microsoft.com*7C2ebb96788524449590a908db22838563*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C638141721598033544*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=sU*2BK3PYZZWuK2wbUU9MhAlJszxQtRzpC4nVbq4iH*2Bbw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!PwKahg!7ZojPT6XOi5H_tKkgw5tO07ZHZe60-UILP4eaC_UoziqzsRDB070riSNvubcEUZfcbB2FHT-dLZBdbcA1KHVCrBWDHH1PgvR7A$" target="_blank">
https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-core-1_0.html#SelfIssued</a>. (The ideas for it were partially based on self-issued Information Cards, which used a public/private keypair held in a wallet for authentication.)</p>
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-- Mike</p>
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<b>From:</b> Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sam Goto via Openid-specs-ab<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 11, 2023 11:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Sam Goto <<a href="mailto:goto@google.com" target="_blank">goto@google.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] SIOP and webauthn</p>
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I don't recall the timelines precisely, but didn't we develop WebAuthn before SIOP?</p>
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I think i understand why SIOP was developed, if it was done after WebAuthn, because, IIRC, WebAuthn didn't have the cross platform syncing capabilities that it has today, but i do wonder where SIOP would fit today.</p>
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On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 9:41 AM Tom Jones via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:</p>
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Check out chapi</p>
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thx ..Tom (mobile)</p>
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On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 2:45 AM Nikos Fotiou via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:</p>
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Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a question which is related to politics and standardization history.<br>
<br>
I believe that SIOP (as defined in openid connect core) could have been used instead of WebAuthn. A combination of SIOP+ctap (rather than WebAuthn+ctap) would have more chances of getting adopted. So I was wondering how we came up with yet another API instead
of adding support for SIOP to browsers. Did this ever occur as a possibility?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Nikos<br>
<br>
--<br>
Nikos Fotiou - <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww2.aueb.gr*2Fusers*2Ffotiou*2F&data=05*7C01*7CKristina.Yasuda*40microsoft.com*7C2ebb96788524449590a908db22838563*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C638141721598189796*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=UGQm8sW4YVpJwBhv1ZRaPG6NwPViOZciPKzGdJCD6RE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!PwKahg!7ZojPT6XOi5H_tKkgw5tO07ZHZe60-UILP4eaC_UoziqzsRDB070riSNvubcEUZfcbB2FHT-dLZBdbcA1KHVCrBWDHH-lLEGvg$" target="_blank">
https://www2.aueb.gr/users/fotiou/</a><br>
Researcher - Mobile Multimedia Laboratory<br>
Athens University of Economics and Business<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fmm.aueb.gr*2F&data=05*7C01*7CKristina.Yasuda*40microsoft.com*7C2ebb96788524449590a908db22838563*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C638141721598189796*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=dAawSxHbdV*2FHPkAJvw*2F9NK9P2bEkqlmc0eM42SaVLYU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!PwKahg!7ZojPT6XOi5H_tKkgw5tO07ZHZe60-UILP4eaC_UoziqzsRDB070riSNvubcEUZfcbB2FHT-dLZBdbcA1KHVCrBWDHHY5oEjMg$" target="_blank">https://mm.aueb.gr</a><br>
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