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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2022 11:09, Torsten
Lodderstedt wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:76131140-79EC-446E-BB81-11912DD5DD47@lodderstedt.net">
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<div class="">Am 10.06.2022 um 11:55 schrieb David Chadwick
<<a href="mailto:d.w.chadwick@verifiablecredentials.info"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">d.w.chadwick@verifiablecredentials.info</a>>:</div>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2022 10:43, Torsten
Lodderstedt wrote:<br class="">
</div>
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cite="mid:2FF99EC7-11D7-44B9-8022-A454AC7C395D@lodderstedt.net"
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<div class="">Am 10.06.2022 um 11:36 schrieb David
Chadwick <<a
href="mailto:d.w.chadwick@verifiablecredentials.info"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">d.w.chadwick@verifiablecredentials.info</a>>:</div>
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content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2022
10:02, Torsten Lodderstedt wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:960A77C2-F54E-48F1-A39C-F88BC60E07CE@lodderstedt.net"
class="">
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<div class="">Am 10.06.2022 um 10:38
schrieb David Chadwick via
Openid-specs-ab <<a
href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
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<p class="">I think the latter
included the former.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Please explain the privacy implications of
the fact that the RP knows that an user uses
a wallet provided by provider a.<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="">Because then it can differentiate
between requests coming from different wallet
providers, and, depending upon how the wallet
provider is indicated, could have a
correlating handle between requests.</p>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
But why is that a privacy issue?</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="">Because if an RP can tell that the same user
is continually returning, when the user does not want
this to occur (e.g. say its an adult web site) then its
violating the user's privacy and the RP can build a
profile of the user.</p>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The RP does not know whether it is the same use unless a
user id is issued by the wallet. Since millions of users may
share the same wallet service, I don’t see how this impacts
user privacy. </div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Don’t get me wrong but to me this feels like If someone sees
what car brand I drive is already a violation of my privacy. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The other problem with your solution is this. If the RP can
determine the wallet supplier, then it can determine which
suppliers to accept, which distorts the open market. Using your
car analogy, it is like a petrol station saying that it will only
provide petrol to BMWs. Instead, all my solution requires is that
the petrol pump nozzle fits the petrol tank entry pipe, regardless
of the make of car. So the petrol station will provide petrol to
any certified petrol tank entry pipe.<br>
</p>
<p>Kind regards</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:76131140-79EC-446E-BB81-11912DD5DD47@lodderstedt.net">
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Kind regards</p>
<p class="">David<br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2FF99EC7-11D7-44B9-8022-A454AC7C395D@lodderstedt.net"
class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:960A77C2-F54E-48F1-A39C-F88BC60E07CE@lodderstedt.net"
class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> If the RP can
differentiate between user1 with
wallet1 and user2 with wallet2 from
a different provider, then the
requirement has not been fulfilled.
That is my interpretation. So the RP
should not be able to distinguish
between requests from<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">user1 with wallet1</p>
<p class="">user1 with wallet2</p>
<p class="">user2 with wallet1</p>
<p class="">user2 with wallet2</p>
<p class="">They should all look like
different requests from different
users to the RP. This is how the
original SAML worked before
persistent IDs were introduced.
Personally I think it is a superb
privacy protecting feature, and its
what we have implemented in our
product.<br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">Please explain how this can be
implemented. As soon as the RP needs to
check the compliance of the wallet using a
cert, there is an identifier to identify
and distinguish wallet services. <br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="">I already explained this in my
original message. Please re-read it again<br
class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">I read it and I think the public key id
in the cert is a correlation handle. </div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="">Kind regards</p>
<p class="">David<br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:960A77C2-F54E-48F1-A39C-F88BC60E07CE@lodderstedt.net"
class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="">Kind regards</p>
<p class="">David<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
10/06/2022 07:53, Kristina Yasuda
via Openid-specs-ab wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR00MB088712E3E8D0CB25CDDEC455E5A69@BYAPR00MB0887.namprd00.prod.outlook.com"
class="">
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content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
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<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Thank
you, David.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">+1 to
Torsten’s question and
interpretation that the text
refers to verifier not being
able to differentiate two
different wallet instances and
use that to identify a unique<span
style="font-size: inherit;"
class=""> user.</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
</div>
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id="mail-editor-reference-message-container"
class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message">
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tabindex="-1" class="">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr" class=""><font
class="" face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><b class="">From:</b>
Openid-specs-ab <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net></a>
on behalf of Torsten
Lodderstedt via
Openid-specs-ab <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net></a><br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b>
Thursday, June 9, 2022 12:06
PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Artifact
Binding/Connect Working
Group<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> Torsten
Lodderstedt<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re:
[Openid-specs-ab] SIOP call
2022-June-9
<div class=""> </div>
</font></div>
Thanks for sharing.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I would like to
understand whether "two
certified EUDI Wallets“ in
this statement refer to two
different
implementations/service
providers or just two
different instances for
different users. I assume the
later since the former does
not have privacy implications.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">best regards,</div>
<div class="">Torsten. <br
class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite"
class="">
<div class="">Am
09.06.2022 um 20:36
schrieb David Chadwick
via Openid-specs-ab <<a
href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">During
today's call I
asserted that the EU
Digital Identity
Wallet should be
able to prove to an
RP that it is
certified without
revealing its
identity or who the
software provider
is. I was asked to
find a reference to
this. It is on page
26 of "European
Digital Identity
Architecture and
Reference Framework"
available here: <br
class="">
</p>
<p class=""><a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcloud.eid.as%2Findex.php%2Fs%2FDQ5aRjyzJDNKXpW&data=05%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7Cdde2e2735d554c67888308da4a4af495%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637903984091677249%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AXMbHKj5%2FQ1fHgTGQIhlzNuwaqUTdHxyYNad%2BMHlp2o%3D&reserved=0"
originalsrc="https://cloud.eid.as/index.php/s/DQ5aRjyzJDNKXpW"
shash="E53rDx/Yn3rFWDcmKW/GwvdQ2oGP0eiBuStjRDCOjMD34a1vdDDZ+msQqL3SjKbAjlaN/u65RaDWdoWcSjI2NkjqTJTgwma3C3HKLvoKII/xqr7Ri9BEs74q2XPmMeFsWA0XGezo87mcVgt8jHBSpK5dV7WZPW/f+6t1d8ZYo7s="
moz-do-not-send="true">https://cloud.eid.as/index.php/s/DQ5aRjyzJDNKXpW</a><br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">Here is
the relevant text</p>
<p class="">"In
addition, the
mechanism for
relying parties to
verify whether a
EUDI Wallet used is
genuine and
certified, shall not
enable the relying
party to distinguish
between two
certified EUDI
Wallets, in order to
preserve the privacy
of the user when
performing
pseudonymous
authentication." <br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">This could
be implemented using
traditional
asymmetric crypto,
in which each EUDI
wallet is issued its
own VC, stating that
it is a certified
wallet, issued by
the EUDI
certification
authority, in which
the subject ID is
the public key of
the wallet. There
would be no
information to
indicate who the
wallet provider is,
or who the wallet
holder is. However,
this certificate, if
long lived, would
then be a
correlating handle,
so by issuing
transient short
lived VCs to the
wallet each time an
RP requires
assurance, the
public key would
change every time
thereby removing the
ability to correlate
the certifying VCs.<br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">Kind
regards</p>
<p class="">David<br
class="">
</p>
<span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:120.04px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">In
addition,</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:208.01px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:215.233px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">the
mechanism for</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:361.955px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:369.083px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">relying
parties</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:478.214px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:485.483px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">to
verify whether</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:620.797px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:628.117px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">a</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:636.93px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:644.117px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">EUDI
W</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:704.117px; top:565.163px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">allet
used is genuine and</span><br role="presentation" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-family:Arial; font-size:16px; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<p class=""><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:120.04px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">certifie</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:172.833px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">d</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:182.433px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">,</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:187.033px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:191.033px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">shall</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:226.325px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:230.433px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">not
enable the relying party to distinguish between two certified</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:711.391px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:715.717px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">EUDI
W</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:772.917px; top:590.763px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">allets,
in order to</span><br role="presentation" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-family:Arial; font-size:16px; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:120.04px; top:616.563px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">preserve
the privacy of the user when performing pseudonymous authentication.</span><span role="presentation" dir="ltr" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; white-space:pre; font-style:normal; font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); left:726.651px; top:616.563px; font-size:18.4px; font-family:sans-serif">
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