<div dir="ltr">thanks Kristina for the summary!<div>Small adjustment: my point wasn't as much about the IDtoken missing (tho that's worth discussing too) but about the openid scope missing. Traditionally, the presence of that scope is what signals to the authorization server that the request is an openid connect request (as opposed to a vanilla oauth one) and in some implementations that might determine whether the request is processed in a code path supporting all other OIDC specific elements (login_hint, acr_values etc).<br>I am not strongly opposed in principle to omitting the IDtoken, but I think that not sending the openid scope might make it harder for existing providers to add support for the new features. There were various interesting suggestions on the call (eg use of new response_types) that might achieve the same outcome.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 1:47 PM Kristina Yasuda via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





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<p><strong>This message originated outside your organization.</strong></p><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David Chadwick<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Vittorio Bertocci<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel Fett<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Giuseppe De Marco<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Joseph Heenan<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Torsten Lodderstedt<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jo Vercammen<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David Schudde<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Rolson Quadras<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David Waite<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tom Jones<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John Bradley<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Petteri Stenius<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike Jones<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kristina Yasuda<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">- meeting recorded</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">- Introductions:</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">              - David Schudde from Yorba introduced himself:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://yorba.co__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFsjU6vAI$" target="_blank">https://yorba.co</a>. He can be reached at <a href="mailto:schmudde@yorba.co" target="_blank">
schmudde@yorba.co</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">- <span class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmarka6v39w0tx">Agenda</span> adopted</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:SimSun"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12pt">W3C VC WG finalized charter for the vc-data-model-v2:</span>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://w3c.github.io/vc-wg-charter/__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeF3uhoIlA$" target="_blank">Verifiable Credentials Working Group Charter (w3c.github.io)</a><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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<li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12pt">If all goes smoothly, the work on it would start within the few months, once the charter gets approved<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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<li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12pt">ISO SC17 WG10 working on presentation of mDL over the Internet has asked about the stable version of SIOPv2 and OIDC4VP, since the latest technical
 specification from ISO mentions it<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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<li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12pt">WG agreed to work towards publishing Second Implementer’s Drafts of SIOPv2/OIDC4VP with all the breaking changes from the First Implementer’s Drafts
 before the publication of the ISO’s specification, so that the document referenced by the ISO is very unlikely to have technical breaking changes before going to final<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12pt">Editors will start with triaging the issues to have a list of potential breaking changes that needs to be prioritized in the WG<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12pt">ISO SC17 WG10 agreed that SIOP features have “parity” with mdoc request-response that ISO WG has been working on (huge progress)<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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<li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:12pt">Editors of the OIDC4VCI spec indicated that they would like to make as much progress as possible on the specification before IIW
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">- PRs </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fbitbucket.org*2Fopenid*2Fconnect*2Fpull-requests*2F&data=04*7C01*7CKristina.Yasuda*40microsoft.com*7C076de138a9434313d7df08da07b1c590*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637830758257768797*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=NvwjmfI*2Fu8jgnKi*2FREuHrJnm0RjZmYT6F5I1XjaCxiY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeF2-Y49d0$" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<b>PR #138 – oidc4vci: pre-authorized code: </b><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/138__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFwLrrMPY$" target="_blank">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/138</a><b><u></u><u></u></b></li></ul>
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Torsten introduced the issue. <u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:1in">
Daniel F. pointed out the need to add new security considerations since anyone who can get hold of a QR code could get a VC issued<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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Mix-Up attack, Brute Forcing attack on the PIN, Authorization code injection attack were mentioned<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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David C. clarified if the PIN was one-time use. Currently it is intended to be one-time used, passed via a separate channel<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:1in">
WG members are encouraged to review the PR, especially on the security aspect<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:1in">
We agreed to discuss this PR during the next SIOP call, after people had more time to review it<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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PR #136 – oidc4vci: clarify holder binding: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/136__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFUMMQkdM$" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/136</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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merged  <u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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Issues #1453, #1452 resolved<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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We did not cover more PRs, but people are encouraged to review. In particular,<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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PR #145: [oidc4vci] Revises the approach to credential metadata publishing: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/145__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFVpuUHvo$" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/145</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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Related to issue #1466<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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PR #142 oidc4vp: example with anoncreds: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/142__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFjzEV2sA$" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/142</a><u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417MsoListParagraph" style="margin-right:3in;margin-left:0in">
PR #144 updating SIOP v2 definition: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/144__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFOdhXDz8$" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/144</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- Issues <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fbitbucket.org*2Fopenid*2Fconnect*2Fissues*3Fstatus*3Dnew*26status*3Dopen*26component*3DSIOP*26component*3DVerifiable*2520Presentation*26component*3DCredential*2520Issuance&data=04*7C01*7CKristina.Yasuda*40microsoft.com*7C076de138a9434313d7df08da07b1c590*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637830758257768797*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=ccce9PXmdGPLv*2FssVmoUlIkXN*2FudMScnnEVJSuAegHQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFd3mwhXc$" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues?status=new&status=open&component=SIOP&component=Verifiable%20Presentation&component=Credential%20Issuance</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
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#1467: DID resolver method for OIDC Federation (did:openid:!) wrt SIOP v2: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1467/did-resolver-method-for-oidc-federation__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFopgnKZ8$" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1467/did-resolver-method-for-oidc-federation</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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There is a need to clarify what we would achieve by replacing http URL with DIDs as a mechanism to obtain Entity Statements in OpenID Federation<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
WG members are encouraged to continue discussion in the Issue<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
Probably better to classify this as Federation related issue<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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#1470: SIOP Response without ID Token with only a VP Token: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1470/siop-response-with-vp_token-only__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFV7feccs$" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1470/siop-response-with-vp_token-only</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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Vittorio pointed out that without ID Token, this would not be OpenID Connect<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
Torsten made a point that it will still be a protocol on top of OAuth, and if we want OAuth/OIDC based protocols to be used, they should be as simple as possible to be able to compete with other emerging protocols<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
Rolson shared that as an implementer who started implementing SIOPv2/OIDC4VP already having VC/DID implementation, they got VP Token part straightforward, but still struggle with ID Token implementation<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
John advised not to use `scope` parameter to indicate that there is no need for the OP to return an ID Token, so as to be respectful for the existing OP implementations. Probably use response_type, or response_mode. This would be especially relevant if we will
 expand definition of SIOP and allow self-issued ID Tokens to be sent using code flow.<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
Torsten mentioned few use-cases where SIOP with code flow would make sense – cloud wallet, eIDAS, etc.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1399/siop-with-any-oidc-flow__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFrV-qqnQ$" target="_blank">
https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1399/siop-with-any-oidc-flow</a><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
There was support in the chat towards using `response_type`<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0.5in">
We agreed to explore mechanisms to turn off a feature to return ID Tokens, also taking into account existing OIDC implementations, who might support self-signed ID Token features<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From the chat</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Tom Jones: “The PEMC is creating a set of requirement for any identifier that is send from a verifier to a wallet in order to assure the the user can make a valid conset to release data - would the SIOP be interested
 in such requirements? They would apply to SIOP and well as 18013-5 if adopted. My own take on this would be that any identifier contained in the requiest would be guaranteed (tbd) by the verifier to be a valid representation of the request. For example if
 square the request they would guarantee the identifier of the merchant in the request”</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Relevant URL?: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://kantarainitiative.org/groups/PImDL-work-group/__;!!PwKahg!p9ckMFvnb1hvvBFOaflBCc2uDvDJuUx1zjbMgGS1ca1EJ_yfIUbQqHeFflC55tE$" target="_blank">
https://kantarainitiative.org/groups/PImDL-work-group/</a></span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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<p class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Next SIOP call is April 7^th 8am PST.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Thank you!</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:SimSun"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_6376226964233059417xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Kristina</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:SimSun"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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