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<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Mike Jones</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Kristina Yasuda</div>
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Edmund Jay</div>
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Jeremie Miller</div>
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Anthony Nadalin</div>
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Nikos Foticou</div>
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David Waite</div>
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Pamela Dingle</div>
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Nader Helmy (Mattr)</div>
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Ran Xing</div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">- IPR reminder & introductions/re-introductions</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">- <span class="x_marka6v39w0tx">Agenda</span> adopted </span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">- DIF Presentation Exchange/OIDF WG update
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<li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin:0mm 0mm 0mm 42pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:SimSun; color:black; margin-left:24.0pt; background:white">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">A call on Wed 1PM PT, 10PM Berlin, Thus 8AM NZ</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin:0mm 0mm 0mm 42pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:SimSun; color:black; margin-left:24.0pt; background:white">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">please see the IPR related thread</span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin:0mm 0mm 0mm 42pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:SimSun; color:black; margin-left:24.0pt; background:white">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Showing that not-modifying PE will be a breaking change for OIDC (OIDC4VP) is key</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin:0mm 0mm 0mm 42pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:SimSun; color:black; margin-left:24.0pt; background:white">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">if you file PE-related issues in Bitbucket, ideally please also file them in DIF PE GitHub</span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin:0mm 0mm 0mm 42pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:SimSun; color:black; margin-left:24.0pt; background:white">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">There is a proposal to have the ability to use PE v1 as-is and use a version adapted to OIDC4VP needs </span></li></ul>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">- PRs</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/23">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/23</a> - please review</span></li></ul>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">- Discussion</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Multiple wallet selection - SIOP invocation</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Tony introduced the topic that from conversations in ISO mDL WG, it is becoming clear that <span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">Google/Apple
see the wallet choosing option as an OS feature and there is a fear users will not have a free choice of wallet.</span></span></p>
</li><li class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:12pt;font-family:SimSun;color:black;background:white">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Jeremie commented that SIOP chooser work becomes relevant, but it relies on the trust framework</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">We discussed that if SIOP belongs to a trust framework, it should rely on the trust framework to host a<span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important"> common
or shared</span> website with universal links to the SIOPs </span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">that can satisfy RP request</span></p>
</li><li class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:12pt;font-family:SimSun;color:black;background:white">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Kristina suggested that having only one option of custom schema is not feasible because of unpredictable mobile OS behavior and
suggested to remove a requirement to use openid:// - no one opposed</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The question was asked if each wallet having a separate custom schema is an option for SIOPs that do not belong to any trust framework. </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">DW said that it not secure anymore - a lot of possibility of being phished since any malicious app can use your custom schema, <span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">imitate
your UI</span> and trick the user </span><br>
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</li><li class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:12pt;font-family:SimSun;color:black;background:white">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Torsten has mentioned in mDL RFI response thread the possibility of using CIBA-like flow. Tony said he will talk to Torsten about CIBA proposal</span><br>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Kristina did a PR to document this discussion: <a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/25" style="margin:0px">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/pull-requests/25</a></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;background:white"><span lang="EN-US" style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">JSON Web Proofs </span></p>
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Jeremie introduced the work on selective disclosure and unlinkable presentations that he and DW has been working on: </span><a title="" href="https://hackmd.io/@quartzjer/JSON_Web_Proof" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">https://hackmd.io/@quartzjer/JSON_Web_Proof</a></p>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1254/consider-using-json-web-proofs-once" id="LPlnk" style=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1254/consider-using-json-web-proofs-once</span></a></div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">A container format (not a protocol) that is familiar and comfortable with all of current
stacks with JOSE based tokens</span><br>
</span></div>
</li><li style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; margin: 0mm;">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">An <span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">extension of JWS format to support algs that can do selective disclosure and unlinkable
presentations<span> </span></span></span></div>
</li><li style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; margin: 0mm;">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The plan is to incubation this work in DIF Crypto WG and when ready take to IETF to standardize t</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">here</span></div>
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<p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; margin: 0mm;">
<span lang="EN-US" style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Kristina said this work is very important to allow selective disclosure not only with LD-proofs, but also with JWS</span></p>
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<p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; margin: 0mm;">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Tony asked if this would work for COSE formats, which would be
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">beneficial</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> for selective disclosure
in mDL</span></p>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">DW said that COSE already has an concept of arrays which relates to JWP's idea of a sequence that is representing a new concept of an array of payloads.</span><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"></font></p>
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<font face="Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Tony said we would want to support specific
</span>algorithms<span style="font-size: 12pt;"> like <span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">IDEMIX and U-Proof</span></span></font></p>
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<font face="Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">Jeremie and Mike agreed</span></span></font></p>
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<font face="Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">DW used the analogy of an hourglass: container that describes common
formats, commonality across algorithms, and commonality based on the data being transferred for common processing on top of each other.</span></span></font></p>
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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif">Ideally would like to extend beyond a crypto container format to provide application level processing rules, to take advantage of JWT's property of isolating cryptosystem to the point where you take responsibility for limited
set of things when integrating security in application layer.</font></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Mike asked what would have to be layered on top of this to have the equivalent of JWTs that allows for selective disclosure of claims</span></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Jeremie explained that depends on how do we want to define what the application logic is going to process and what are its processing rules around that, where the result is not one
JSON object.</span></p>
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<p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; margin: 0mm;">
<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">A simple way to think about it is, instead of a JWT being one JWS, a JWT would be multiple JWSs with claims distributed among them</span></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Mike said that for usability and adoption, preserving claims model rather than handing back an array is preferred</span></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Tony asked if JWP will cover both online and offline use-cases</span></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Jeremie said it is intended to, for example through derivation, where users can have one credential, and do multiple derivations, and Verifiers would not be able to tell if what
they have handled multiple times is actually based on the same credential.</span></p>
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<p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; margin: 0mm;">
<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Jeremie introduced the terms they are starting to use in related conversations: single use credential and multi-use credential</span></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">need to go back to the issuer to get a new credential, vs being able to keep presenting the same credential once issued once.</span></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">DW commented how in single use relationship with the issuer is maintained, and multi-use credential is closer to an mDL model.</span></p>
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<p style="background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; margin: 0mm;">
<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">We discussed the need for UI where the user is warned, "if you disclose this information, you are correlatable with other recent usage".</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">- Issues</span></p>
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<span class="x_markuclqdxk1g" style="color: black; font-family: SimSun; font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Kristina encouraged to review the following SIOP</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> V2
related issues</span><br>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">An issue back from 2018: <a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1027/write-a-self-issued-idp-si-idp-best">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1027/write-a-self-issued-idp-si-idp-best</a></span></li><li class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm; font-size:12pt; font-family:SimSun; color:black; background:white">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Progress on <span class="x_markuclqdxk1g">SIOP</span> properties: <a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1239/we-should-stop-using-siop-as-an-umbrella">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues/1239/we-should-stop-using-siop-as-an-umbrella</a></span></li><li class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm; font-size:12pt; font-family:SimSun; color:black; background:white">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Other open issues: <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2Fopenid%2Fconnect%2Fissues%3Fstatus%3Dnew%26status%3Dopen%26component%3DSIOP&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7Cc9daa6ca3af6414eb84608d930374cef%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637593838644026529%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7qefbzQ7u7ty7qnIv%2BFDlsN7d6PtySvyllmqnskOWgc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" title="$B85$N(B URL: https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues?status=new&status=open&component=SIOP$B!#$3$N%j%s%/$r?.Mj$9$k>l9g$O!"%/%j%C%/$^$?$O%?%C%W$7$F$/$@$5$$!#(B">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issues?status=new&status=open&component=<span class="x_markuclqdxk1g">SIOP</span></a></span></li></ul>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">- Ajorned at 15:57</span><br>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important"><span class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0px 0mm;font-size:12pt;font-family:SimSun;background:white"><span style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">I
tried to capture good discussion we had around JWP in the notes, and <span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">
we will make sure we have updates in this special call, but </span>i</span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">f you are interested in participating in this work, please follow </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">DIF
Crypto WG.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Best,</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Kristina</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Noto Sans CJK JP Medium",sans-serif; color:#4472C4"></span></p>
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