<div dir="ltr">David, <div><br></div><div>"claim" is a defined term in OpenID Connect Core 1.0, so it cannot be re-defined by a profile. FYI, it is used 493 times in the OIDC Core 1.0. </div><div>It will cause confusion to the readers if we mix the usage. </div><div><br></div><div>The definition of "credential" seems to be a little in conflict with the way RFC6749 and other OAuth standards use the word: it is for entity authentication specifically. The W3C definition is broadening it up and causes consistency problem from OAuth point of view and from OIDC point of view as it builds on top of OAuth. </div><div><br></div><div>These issues need to be addressed during the spec discussion, probably in the direction that aligning with OIDC in this spec and directing readers to replace the words that appear in external specs in a consistent way. </div><div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div><br></div><div>Nat Sakimura</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:00 AM David Chadwick via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>We do not need to provide definitions as they already exist in
the W3C VC Data Model Recommendation, so we can simply reference
them. They are:<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p><dl><dt><dfn id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499dfn-claims">claim</dfn></dt>
<dd>
An assertion made about a <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-subjects" target="_blank">subject</a>. </dd>
<dt></dt><dt><dfn id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499dfn-credential">credential</dfn></dt>
<dd>
A set of one or more <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-claims" target="_blank">claims</a> made by
an <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-issuers" target="_blank">issuer</a>.</dd>
<dt>A
<dfn id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499dfn-verifiable-credentials">verifiable
credential</dfn> is a
tamper-evident credential that has authorship that can be
cryptographically
verified. </dt>
</dl>
<p>You will note that the W3C recommendation does not say anything
about what the assertion may be, but if you look it up in a
dictionary you will get something like</p>
<p><span>Assertion - a
positive statement or declaration, often without support or
reason <br>
</span></p>
<p><span>Please tell me what
is unclear about the above</span></p>
<p><span>Kind regards</span></p>
<p><span>David</span></p>
<p><span><br>
</span></p>
<p></p>
<div>On 10/05/2021 16:36, Tom Jones via
Openid-specs-ab wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">And I find the lack of clarity to be extremely
rude and disrespectful of any sort of meaningful conversation
about the issues. If you have a better definition of claim,
please let us hear it.<br>
<br>
<div>thx ..Tom (mobile)</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 10, 2021, 8:28 AM
Oliver Terbu via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">This is another example of an extremely rude
and disrespectful tone by the same person:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"I want clarity of language. Right now we just have a
claim = some crap and credential = a pile of crap."</div>
<div><a href="http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2021-May/008233.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2021-May/008233.html</a></div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oliver</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 10 May 2021 at
14:39, Kristina Yasuda via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thank
you, Nat.</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">As
promised, I wanted to outline the relationship
between "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable
Credential Objects" (OIDC4VCO) draft and other
existing drafts. (point 2 in this issue) </span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">※
Note that there was a proposal to rename the draft <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"> "OpenID
Connect for W3C Verifiable Presentations", but I
will use OIDC4VCO<span> abbreviation for now.</span></span></span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<ul>
<li><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">Relationship
with
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">OpenID
Connect </span>Core: OIDC4VCO uses
mechanisms already defined in OIDC Core, and
does not introduce any breaking changes.</span></span></li>
<li>Relationship with SIOP V2 draft: SIOP V2 draft
will refer to the OIDC4VCO draft wrt how W3C
verifiable presentations (VPs) can be transported
using SIOP model, since OIDC4VCO draft defines a
generic way how W3C VPs can be used with various
OIDC flows including SIOP V2.</li>
<li>Relationship with Claims Aggregation draft (and
Credential Provider draft once contributed): these
drafts will be used by the OP to receive
credentials from the Claims Provider, so that the
OP will be able to present received credentials to
the RP using OIDC4VCO draft. These drafts should
be aligned as much as possible.</li>
<li>Relationship with DIF Presentation Exchange (PE)
draft: DIF PE draft could be used as part of the
request syntax in OIDC4VCO draf, which can be
discussed once OIDC4VCO draft is adopted. DIF PE
is a query language that is protocol agnostic, and
it does not replace OIDC4VCO draft.</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">This
is an initial summary and additional input from the
editors/working group is very welcome.</span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">A
work item to enable transporting W3C VPs using
OpenID Connect, will most likely not be successful
outside OpenID Foundation AB/C Working Group,
because that is where the collective OpenID Connect
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">
expertise resides. </span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">Best,</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">Kristina</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span></span></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499m_4803601983149473814gmail-m_3578548790420887896divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>差出人:</b>
Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>>
が Nat via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>
の代理で送信<br>
<b>送信日時:</b> 2021年5月7日 0:55<br>
<b>宛先:</b> <a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>
<<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>CC:</b> Nat <<a href="mailto:issues-reply@bitbucket.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">issues-reply@bitbucket.org</a>><br>
<b>件名:</b> [Openid-specs-ab] Issue #1229: Adoption
of the "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential
Objects" (openid/connect)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>New issue 1229: Adoption of the "OpenID
Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects"<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2Fopenid%2Fconnect%2Fissues%2F1229%2Fadoption-of-the-openid-connect-for-w3c&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=v8JUcUVcU4A%2FlkpyB43J2%2B9DB9axNOyOGjmQAe5GU58%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2Fopenid%2Fconnect%2Fissues%2F1229%2Fadoption-of-the-openid-connect-for-w3c&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=v8JUcUVcU4A%2FlkpyB43J2%2B9DB9axNOyOGjmQAe5GU58%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
<br>
Nat Sakimura:<br>
<br>
SIOP SC recommended the adoption of “[OpenID
Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects](<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=LdCCcQ1tptJ290hqLdPsJdDWACLjeswgOwEKvhBi%2FyM%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=LdCCcQ1tptJ290hqLdPsJdDWACLjeswgOwEKvhBi%2FyM%3D&reserved=0</a>)”
\[1\] as a working group item. <br>
<br>
\[1\] [<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&reserved=0](https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&reserved=0](https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&reserved=0</a>)<br>
<br>
Some concerns were expressed by a few WG
members. <br>
<br>
This ticket is to give an opportunity for those
members to express their concerns and proposers
to reply to them.
<br>
<br>
There are a few criteria for non-adoption of
documents: namely<br>
<br>
1. If the draft does not fall into the scope of
the WG. <br>
2. If the draft is overlapping with existing
drafts, the technical content should be raised
as an issue and eventually result in PR rather
than starting a new draft.
<br>
<br>
1. NOTE: A non-overlapping portion can be
made as an independent document so proposers
should consider creating such.
<br>
<br>
3. If there is a legal or reputational risk for
the OIDF in adopting the document. \(The board
may intervene on this ground.\)
<br>
<br>
If the issues are only on the technical nature
of the proposed draft that does not fall into
the above criteria, then, it should be dealt
with during and after the adoption of the
document.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<fieldset></fieldset>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Nat Sakimura<div>NAT.Consulting LLC</div></div></div>