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<p>Hi Nat,</p>
<p>we traditionally indicate all authentication classes fullfilled by a particular session/login transaction to our RPs, no matter whether the RP requested a certain class or not. We would like to keep it that way.</p>
<p>Having said that, I would like to understand how you (and the WG) envision the usage of acrs. Does an acr response only make sense, if the RP explicitely requested and or more acrs? So is the acr only used to confirm the fullfillment of a RP's requirement to a certain login transaction?</p>
<p>regards,<br />Torsten.</p>
<p>Am 03.06.2013 01:04, schrieb Nat Sakimura:</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Torsten,
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<div>What is your use case for multi valued acr response? </div>
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<div>FYI, a client can 'request' multiple acr values. </div>
<div>The server, if it can fulfill, picks one and responds. </div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">2013/6/1 Torsten Lodderstedt <span><<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>></span><br />
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<div>Hi Mike,</div>
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<div>can you still remember the arguments? I couldn't find a note about this discussion in the respective minutes (<span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap;"><a href="http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/Week-of-Mon-20130304/003231.html">http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/Week-of-Mon-20130304/003231.html</a>).</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap;">regards,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap;">Torsten.</span></div>
<div><br />Am 01.06.2013 um 15:25 schrieb Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>>:<br /><br /></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Having a multi-valued “acr” was what the issue originally proposed. John, Nat, and I think Tony all argued in the March 4<sup>th</sup> call that that was the wrong thing to do. They convinced me that they’re right.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> -- Mike<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> Torsten Lodderstedt [<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net">mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>] <br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, May 31, 2013 11:26 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> Mike Jones<br /><strong>Cc:</strong> John Bradley; OpenId Connect List<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] amr vs acr<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">seems no one is really comfortable with the current design. Why not drop amr and make acr a multi-value?<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">regards,<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Torsten.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><br /> Am 01.06.2013 um 03:55 schrieb Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>>:<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">That aligns with my thinking as well.</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> John Bradley [<a href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com">mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>] <br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, May 31, 2013 6:54 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> Mike Jones<br /><strong>Cc:</strong> Nat Sakimura; OpenId Connect List<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] amr vs acr</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">amr is something people think they want, but it winds up being too inflexible for any real use. Mostly it is token venders that push it. Once an IdP starts saying the user was authenticated wit brand x token or card it is too difficult to keep a federation in sync unless it is quite small. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">act is a good level of abstraction and can cover all the real use cases I know of. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On the other hand amr will let people learn the mistakes of SAML over again. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It is not the end of the world to have it as an option. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br /> Sent from my iPhone<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><br /> On 2013-05-31, at 10:19 PM, Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">I disagree with the MUSTs. We already have language in place saying that if claims aren’t understood, they should be ignored, so there’s no actual problem. (Were there a problem, it would apply to “acr” as well.)</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">I could see going as far as saying, in both “acr” and “amr” that “The definition of particular values to be used in the </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: #1f497d;">acr/amr</span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> Claim is beyond the scope of this specification. Parties using this claim will need to agree on the meanings of the values used for it to be useful to them.”</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> -- Mike</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> Nat Sakimura [<a href="mailto:sakimura@gmail.com">mailto:sakimura@gmail.com</a>] <br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, May 31, 2013 6:06 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> Mike Jones<br /><strong>Cc:</strong> Torsten Lodderstedt; OpenId Connect List<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] amr vs acr</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Ah, that's the call in the morning of the JICS that you did in the 11th floor of NII. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I came in late, sitting at a different table that hearing to the call was a bit hard but did not mind as I was very much distracted by various things to be dealt with JICS. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I remember talking about changing 1,2,3,4 as it became non-compliant to the RFC, as well as arguing against conflating authentication method with the authentication class, on the basis that authentication method by itself is useless and harmful, as in the previous mail. I mistakingly thought that I have killed the idea of amr, which apparently was not. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Unfortunately, the discussion is not recorded in <a href="http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/Week-of-Mon-20130304/003231.html">http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/Week-of-Mon-20130304/003231.html</a> . <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Probably, we should add some warning text to amr then. At the end of the definition of arm, how about adding the following? <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">When using amr, the RP and OP MUST define the common context including the meaning, security characteristics, and the compliance requirement for using it and the RP MUST be able to evaluate the values according to the defined context. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That would mitigate my worries. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2013/6/1 Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">This was one of the two open issues discussed on the 4-Mar-13 working group call. You were on that call, according to the minutes. We had a fairly extensive discussion about the meaning of “acr” and the right way to return information about authentication methods used. Originally the request was to allow multi-valued “acr” values. There was a use case where an implementation wanted to communicate the actual methods used such as “password”, “OTP”, “code in text message”, etc. and I’d originally advocated for letting “acr” be multi-valued, just like PAPE did. John, Tony, and I think you convinced us that that conflating classes with methods would create more problems than it would solve and that it was better to define an optional claim for returning an array of methods used, when needed.</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">On that call we also deleted the LoA values “1”, “2”, “3”, and “4” since as part of that discussion, it came up that they are prohibited by RFC 6711. Instead, we replaced the example values used with real values from InCommon - urn:mace:incommon:iap:bronze and urn:mace:incommon:iap:silver.</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">I don’t think that we should require “acr” when “amr” is used, because there may not be a class, even though there are methods. It depends upon the business context in which the parties are communicating. Like “acr”, “amr” is only useful when the values are understood by both parties. Nonetheless, it’s better to have a standard claim for these methods than to have everyone make up a different one. This kind of information is used in practice, in some contexts.</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> -- Mike</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> <a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Nat Sakimura<br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, May 31, 2013 4:53 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> Torsten Lodderstedt<br /><strong>Cc:</strong> OpenId Connect List<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] amr vs acr</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">s/<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';"> where acr gives more context to the values of acr. / where acr gives more context to the values of amr. /</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2013/6/1 Nat Sakimura <<a href="mailto:sakimura@gmail.com">sakimura@gmail.com</a>><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I suppose you mean amr, not acm. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I actually was not aware of amr till now. It seems it was a fairly quick decision made between March 4 and 6. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">See <a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issue/789/make-acr-claim-values-be-arrays-of-acr">https://bitbucket.org/openid/connect/issue/789/make-acr-claim-values-be-arrays-of-acr</a><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">At the time, I was so busy managing JICS 2013, so it went unnoticed for me. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I also searched through the list archive, but I cannot find the topic in it. There is no record of the decision on the call notes either. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mike, could you point us to the record how the WG decision was reached? <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Apparently, amr is the list of authentication methods, while acr is the indicator of the identity proofing and authentication quality. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">i.e., amr is just the list of such things like "password", "otp", etc. while acr is "InCommons Silver", "ISO29115 LoA 3", etc. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Personally, I do not see much value in amr since it does not indicate any quality information. It may even be harmful when used without context in the sense that it may create sense of false security to the relying parties. For example, "otp" by itself does not mean it is secure. An OTP system with badly managed seed will generate a predictable sequence of "one time passwords", which is not secure at all. It would only be meaningful when there is an assurance that the system is properly managed. In this respect, amr may be meaningful as an auxiliary information only when it is used with acr, where acr gives more context to the values of acr. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I might want to require acr if amr is used, or drop amr, but that is only my personal opinion. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2013/6/1 Torsten Lodderstedt <<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br /><br /> could someone please describe me the difference between the id token members acr and acm? From my understanding, they are just the same. I'm also interested to learn why the authorization request allows to specify multiple acrs but does not support to specify any authentication method (via acm). Additionally, why is there no way to indicate more than one acr in the id token?<br /><br /> Thanks in advance,<br /> Torsten.<br /> _______________________________________________<br /> Openid-specs-ab mailing list<br /><a href="mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br /><a href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab</a><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #888888;">-- <br /> Nat Sakimura (=nat)</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #888888;">Chairman, OpenID Foundation<br /><a href="http://nat.sakimura.org/">http://nat.sakimura.org/</a><br /> @_nat_en</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br /> Nat Sakimura (=nat)<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Chairman, OpenID Foundation<br /><a href="http://nat.sakimura.org/">http://nat.sakimura.org/</a><br /> @_nat_en<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br /> Nat Sakimura (=nat)<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br /> Openid-specs-ab mailing list<br /><a href="mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br /><a href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab</a><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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-- <br />Nat Sakimura (=nat)
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