[Openid-specs-ab] Please Either ABSTAIN or OBJECT from the Federation Spec Vote

Nick Roy nroy at internet2.edu
Fri Jul 20 15:19:28 UTC 2018


As shown by both my and Phil's accidental replies off-list, there also
seems to be a list configuration issue which sets the reply-to address
as the address of the poster, rather than the address of the list.

Nick

On 7/20/18 9:17 AM, Phil Hunt wrote:
> 
> 
> Phil
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2018, at 8:16 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt at oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>> I agree with Nick. The correct process (as i sort of understand it) and discussion was followed. 
>>
>> That said I have complained many times because of issues like this that the WG processes are not published and wg consensus is almost never called. 
>>
>> There is too much rush to implementation without a last call. 
>>
>> This is a serious problem the board must resolve.  
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>> On Jul 20, 2018, at 7:34 AM, Nick Roy via Openid-specs-ab <openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> This time to the list...
>>>
>>>> On Jul 20, 2018, at 8:30 AM, Nick Roy <nroy at internet2.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mike, I personally provided feedback to Roland which he incorporated
>>>> into an updated draft over a year ago. The spec has been available in
>>>> draft form in github for something like two years.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>> On 7/20/18 8:16 AM, Mike Schwartz via Openid-specs-ab wrote:
>>>>>> And there's nothing that prevents that, just like there is nothing that
>>>>>> prevented me from working on HEART if I wanted to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, you're wrong. And I'm pretty active in the OpenID Connect 
>>>>> community... I don't think anyone would say otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> None of the design decisions on this spec were put to any kind of vote. 
>>>>> And as I pointed out previously, discussion was limited. It was a take 
>>>>> it or leave it design. Being presented at a conference is not the same 
>>>>> as getting a say in the process.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was a closed process, where Jones/Hedburg might or might take your 
>>>>> suggestions, depending on their whim. It has the veneer of openness, but 
>>>>> it's not actually open. It's a one party vote, take it or leave it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't start a spec and call it the "Connect AB Alternate Federation 
>>>>> Spec" and have it published here https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__openid.net_connect_&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=jglkfzh43veJDEsRH8sokGmpsmrh2afbdzoPw7Z-XH0&e=   So this 
>>>>> spec was given VERY special treatment, placement and promotion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's not call this an open process when it's not.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>> Michael Schwartz
>>>>> Gluu
>>>>> Founder / CEO
>>>>> mike at gluu.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_nynymike_&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=hpgFrnPt9eP5DCbWWSkhzDGGgkCLxqsYB5OxNoFp674&e=
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-07-20 06:17, openid-specs-ab-request at lists.openid.net wrote:
>>>>>> Send Openid-specs-ab mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>  openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>>  https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openid.net_mailman_listinfo_openid-2Dspecs-2Dab&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=vqMu4wpIOPufViYMGvzTtZtsynYxmLnmUHJCL88jWLY&e=
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of Openid-specs-ab digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Re: Please Either ABSTAIN or OBJECT from the Federation Spec
>>>>>>    Vote (Nick Roy)
>>>>>> 2. Issue #1032: rp-initiated logout - proposal for client_id
>>>>>>    parameter (openid/connect) (Filip Skokan)
>>>>>> 3. Re: Issue #1032: rp-initiated logout - proposal for client_id
>>>>>>    parameter (openid/connect) (Vladimir Dzhuvinov)
>>>>>> 4. Re: Issue #1032: rp-initiated logout - proposal for client_id
>>>>>>    parameter (openid/connect) (Filip Skokan)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:05:45 +0000
>>>>>> From: Nick Roy <nroy at internet2.edu>
>>>>>> To: "openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net"
>>>>>>  <openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Please Either ABSTAIN or OBJECT from
>>>>>>  the Federation Spec Vote
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>  <CY4PR08MB35449C06D30AE97F5188DDFA83520 at CY4PR08MB3544.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And there's nothing that prevents that, just like there is nothing that
>>>>>> prevented me from working on HEART if I wanted to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/19/18 10:43 AM, Mike Schwartz via Openid-specs-ab wrote:
>>>>>>> Nick,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought you had a good idea to move federation to its own WG.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So of course, I'm all for OpenID federations. And I'm also really
>>>>>>> interested in this proposed design. And I appreciate the work done by
>>>>>>> the current editors. It might be the best way. But I was never given a
>>>>>>> choice of A or B. I was just given a choice to approve A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the community should get a say in this design of this spec.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it sounds like you aren't interested in working in an R&E working
>>>>>>>> group.
>>>>>>>> My understanding is that this WG will pursue R&E use cases for this
>>>>>>>> profile. Since R&E is one of the largest users of multilateral SAML
>>>>>>>> federation, I think exploring use of the OIDC Federation work in that
>>>>>>>> space is a great next step.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Openid-specs-ab mailing list
>>>>>>> Openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openid.net_mailman_listinfo_openid-2Dspecs-2Dab&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=vqMu4wpIOPufViYMGvzTtZtsynYxmLnmUHJCL88jWLY&e=
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:10:50 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> From: "Filip Skokan" <issues-reply at bitbucket.org>
>>>>>> To: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
>>>>>> Subject: [Openid-specs-ab] Issue #1032: rp-initiated logout - proposal
>>>>>>  for client_id parameter (openid/connect)
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>  <20180720081050.39616.17365 at celery-worker-105.ash1.bb-inf.net>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New issue 1032: rp-initiated logout - proposal for client_id parameter
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bitbucket.org_openid_connect_issues_1032_rp-2Dinitiated-2Dlogout-2Dproposal-2Dfor-2Dclient-5Fid&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=XPovg09GXpcxWGyelD8zKNCUzJP71dmPh3bNGNK7k5w&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Filip Skokan:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to request that a parameter (optional or required?) client_id
>>>>>> is defined for rp-initiated logout request.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rationale:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently the id_token_hint is the only way of identifying the client
>>>>>> that's making the request. In scenarios where a client does not yet
>>>>>> have an id_token but makes a request to authenticate which fails (e.g.
>>>>>> due to being requested with essential sub claim through claims) the
>>>>>> next step will be to trigger an rp initiated logout with a registered
>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uri but without an id_token_hint. This can be
>>>>>> problematic for OP deployments with a high number of clients as it is
>>>>>> not efficient or sometimes even not possible to iterate over all of
>>>>>> them to see if this post_logout_redirect_uri is whitelisted or not.
>>>>>> Hence the client_id parameter to make this lookup possible and
>>>>>> efficient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Further processing may be defined such as if both client_id and
>>>>>> id_token_hint are provided the audience of the id_token_hint must
>>>>>> include the client_id etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:01:29 +0300
>>>>>> From: Vladimir Dzhuvinov <vladimir at connect2id.com>
>>>>>> To: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Issue #1032: rp-initiated logout -
>>>>>>  proposal for client_id parameter (openid/connect)
>>>>>> Message-ID: <14898981-27c9-8a85-91c8-77c93a931278 at connect2id.com>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Filip,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My concern is that relying on the client_id opens up post logout
>>>>>> redirection to potential misuse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMO the OP shouldn't be picking any redirections if cannot be sure, to 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> satisfactory degree, that it's the legitimate RP making the call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ID token isn't really a substitute for proper RP authentication, 
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> it's some way towards that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A JWS request might help here, but it's probably too much to ask from 
>>>>>> RPs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vladimir
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 20/07/18 11:10, Filip Skokan via Openid-specs-ab wrote:
>>>>>>> New issue 1032: rp-initiated logout - proposal for client_id parameter
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bitbucket.org_openid_connect_issues_1032_rp-2Dinitiated-2Dlogout-2Dproposal-2Dfor-2Dclient-5Fid&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=XPovg09GXpcxWGyelD8zKNCUzJP71dmPh3bNGNK7k5w&e=
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Filip Skokan:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to request that a parameter (optional or required?) client_id 
>>>>>>> is defined for rp-initiated logout request.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rationale:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently the id_token_hint is the only way of identifying the client 
>>>>>>> that's making the request. In scenarios where a client does not yet 
>>>>>>> have an id_token but makes a request to authenticate which fails (e.g. 
>>>>>>> due to being requested with essential sub claim through claims) the 
>>>>>>> next step will be to trigger an rp initiated logout with a registered 
>>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uri but without an id_token_hint. This can be 
>>>>>>> problematic for OP deployments with a high number of clients as it is 
>>>>>>> not efficient or sometimes even not possible to iterate over all of 
>>>>>>> them to see if this post_logout_redirect_uri is whitelisted or not. 
>>>>>>> Hence the client_id parameter to make this lookup possible and 
>>>>>>> efficient.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Further processing may be defined such as if both client_id and 
>>>>>>> id_token_hint are provided the audience of the id_token_hint must 
>>>>>>> include the client_id etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:16:52 +0200
>>>>>> From: Filip Skokan <panva.ip at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: Vladimir Dzhuvinov <vladimir at connect2id.com>
>>>>>> Cc: "openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net Ab"
>>>>>>  <openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Issue #1032: rp-initiated logout -
>>>>>>  proposal for client_id parameter (openid/connect)
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>  <CALAqi_8w2uvCd9R39YQpL-QxT7srCTvgpQvqkGXnrfo80owEFw at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Vladimir,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The OP is advised to render a prompt for the end-user in those cases 
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uri is not provided. And there's no mention of
>>>>>> ignoring the post_logout_redirect_uri param if id_token_hint is 
>>>>>> missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uri
>>>>>>> OPTIONAL. URL to which the RP is requesting that the End-User's User 
>>>>>>> Agent
>>>>>>> be redirected after a logout has been performed. The value MUST have 
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> previously registered with the OP, either using the
>>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uris Registration parameter or via another 
>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>>> If supplied, the OP SHOULD honor this request following the logout.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No mention of ignoring the value if id_token_hint is not provided.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and under security considerations, the advise to prompt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The id_token_hint parameter to a logout request can be used to 
>>>>>> determine
>>>>>>> which RP initiated the logout request. Logout requests without a valid
>>>>>>> id_token_hint value are a potential means of denial of service; 
>>>>>>> therefore,
>>>>>>> OPs may want to require explicit user confirmation before acting upon 
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Supplying a client_id does not change a potential extra OP policy that
>>>>>> id_token_hint must be provided if it choses to do so, it simply makes
>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uri lookup possible in cases where loading all 
>>>>>> uris or
>>>>>> clients into memory is not possible/is inefficient or can't query for 
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> valid uris for the same reasons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> *Filip*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:01 PM Vladimir Dzhuvinov via Openid-specs-ab 
>>>>>> <
>>>>>> openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Filip,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My concern is that relying on the client_id opens up post logout
>>>>>>> redirection to potential misuse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMO the OP shouldn't be picking any redirections if cannot be sure, to 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> satisfactory degree, that it's the legitimate RP making the call.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ID token isn't really a substitute for proper RP authentication, 
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> it's some way towards that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A JWS request might help here, but it's probably too much to ask from 
>>>>>>> RPs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vladimir
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 20/07/18 11:10, Filip Skokan via Openid-specs-ab wrote:
>>>>>>>> New issue 1032: rp-initiated logout - proposal for client_id parameter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bitbucket.org_openid_connect_issues_1032_rp-2Dinitiated-2Dlogout-2Dproposal-2Dfor-2Dclient-5Fid&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=XPovg09GXpcxWGyelD8zKNCUzJP71dmPh3bNGNK7k5w&e=
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Filip Skokan:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to request that a parameter (optional or required?) client_id
>>>>>>> is defined for rp-initiated logout request.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> rationale:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Currently the id_token_hint is the only way of identifying the client
>>>>>>> that's making the request. In scenarios where a client does not yet 
>>>>>>> have an
>>>>>>> id_token but makes a request to authenticate which fails (e.g. due to 
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> requested with essential sub claim through claims) the next step will 
>>>>>>> be to
>>>>>>> trigger an rp initiated logout with a registered 
>>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uri
>>>>>>> but without an id_token_hint. This can be problematic for OP 
>>>>>>> deployments
>>>>>>> with a high number of clients as it is not efficient or sometimes even 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> possible to iterate over all of them to see if this
>>>>>>> post_logout_redirect_uri is whitelisted or not. Hence the client_id
>>>>>>> parameter to make this lookup possible and efficient.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Further processing may be defined such as if both client_id and
>>>>>>> id_token_hint are provided the audience of the id_token_hint must 
>>>>>>> include
>>>>>>> the client_id etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Openid-specs-ab mailing list
>>>>>>> Openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.openid.net_mailman_listinfo_openid-2Dspecs-2Dab&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=qJYRDsHBZhYt-b1obYtxq0fcLFu53TKBfl2_Hw2Gajw&s=vqMu4wpIOPufViYMGvzTtZtsynYxmLnmUHJCL88jWLY&e=
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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