[Openid-specs-ab] 450 x 500 recommendation for popup

Tim Bray tbray at textuality.com
Thu Oct 24 19:59:27 UTC 2013


I just totally hate this.  The notion of “pixels” on modern devices,
particularly in the era of ultra-high-density “retina” screens, is deeply
broken.  For an introduction to some of the basics, go read
http://android-developers.blogspot.ca/2011/07/new-tools-for-managing-screen-sizes.html(warning:
budget a half-hour of reading time).  If the effect we're trying
to achieve is that that the popup not occupy the full screen, or more
specifically any more than 75% of it in either dimension, then that’s what
the text should say.  I totally guarantee that in a single-digit number of
years, display issues are going to make this spec language ROFL fodder.
 What about on a heads-up display like Glass?  What about on your TV?  What
about on your wristwatch?


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Richer, Justin P. <jricher at mitre.org>wrote:

>  The last line sounds awkward to me, how about this edit:
>
>    It is suggested that the popup User-Agent window have a minimum size
> of 450 pixels wide and 500 pixels tall and occupy no more than 75% of the
> horizontal and vertical screen size.  The OP can dynamically resize the
> window as appropriate.
>
>
>   -- Justin
>
>  On Oct 24, 2013, at 10:44 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones at microsoft.com>
>  wrote:
>
>   How about we change this:****
>  The popup User-Agent window SHOULD be 450 pixels wide and 500 pixels tall.
> ****
>  to this:****
>  It is suggested that the popup User-Agent window have a minimum size of
> 450 pixels wide and 500 pixels tall and occupy no more than 75% of the
> horizontal and vertical screen size.  (Also note that in most browsers
> today, the OP can dynamically resize the window.)****
>  ** **
>  Does that work better for people?****
>  ** **
>                                                              -- Mike****
>  ** **
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net [mailto:openid-
> specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net] On Behalf Of Nat Sakimura
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 3:58 AM
> To: Vladimir Dzhuvinov / NimbusDS
> Cc: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
> Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] 450 x 500 recommendation for popup
>  ** **
>  Can we be less prescriptive and say that it should not occupy more than
> 75% of the width and height but has to be larger than certain size and to
> go full size if it is less than that size?****
>  ** **
>  =nat via iPhone****
>  ** **
>  Oct 24, 2013 17:18、"Vladimir Dzhuvinov / NimbusDS" <vladimir at nimbusds.com
> > のメッセージ:****
>  ** **
>  > Popup windows can be resized dynamically after they are opened with****
>  > JavaScript using window.resizeBy() or window.resizeTo(). Given the****
>  > multitude of display sizes, aspect ratios and resolutions I suggest we*
> ***
>  > leave this recommendation out.****
>  >****
>  > --****
>  > Vladimir Dzhuvinov : www.NimbusDS.com <http://www.nimbusds.com/> :
> vladimir at nimbusds.com****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > -------- Original Message --------****
>  > Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] 450 x 500 recommendation for popup****
>  > From: Tim Bray <tbray at textuality.com>****
>  > Date: Wed, October 23, 2013 11:33 pm****
>  > To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones at microsoft.com>****
>  > Cc: "openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net"****
>  > <openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net>****
>  >****
>  > If it were absent, I’m damn sure you wouldn’t get consensus to add it.
> ****
>  > -T****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Mike Jones****
>  > <Michael.Jones at microsoft.com> wrote:****
>  >    I’m not hearing consensus to make any specific changes to this****
>  > parameter.****
>  >****
>  >                                                             -- Mike****
>  >****
>  >   From: openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net****
>  > [mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net<openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net>]
> On Behalf Of Richer,****
>  > Justin P.****
>  > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:09 PM****
>  > To: Brian Campbell****
>  >****
>  > Cc: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net****
>  > Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] 450 x 500 recommendation for popup****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > FWIW, we ignore this parameter completely as our UI is adaptive to****
>  > screen size already.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > -- Justin****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >   On Oct 23, 2013, at 9:38 AM, Brian Campbell****
>  > <bcampbell at pingidentity.com>****
>  >****
>  > wrote:****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >  IMHO, the display parameter already feels obsolete (I mean fixed****
>  > pixel recommendations and wap feature phones?) and the world would be**
> **
>  > a better place if Connect was just silent on it and let the AS apply***
> *
>  > whatever display optimization heuristics it has at its disposal, which*
> ***
>  > will no doubt evolve over time.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >  On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 7:50 AM, George Fletcher <gffletch at aol.com>***
> *
>  > wrote:****
>  >   Yes, this is a carry over from OpenID 2 and the popup window. I'm****
>  > not sure a fixed size makes sense any more as each idp has its own****
>  > dimensions. One of the original goals was to prevent window resizing***
> *
>  > but that is pretty much given in today's environment.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > The main guidance I would give is that the popup window shouldn't****
>  > cover more than X% of the screen. Hopefully some ui team will know****
>  > what X is:)****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > For me, if the popup covers more than say 60% of the screen it's****
>  > better to move the user to a full page redirect model. We've done this*
> ***
>  > for most of our mobile and tablet flows because popups on mobile are a*
> ***
>  > little weird UX wise.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > Thanks,****
>  >****
>  > George****
>  >****
>  > --****
>  >  George Fletcher****
>  >****
>  > Chief Architect, Identity Services****
>  >****
>  > AOL Inc.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > On Oct 23, 2013, at 5:50 AM, John Bradley <ve7jtb at ve7jtb.com> wrote:***
> *
>  >****
>  > I think it was from the UI extension for openID 2.   I remember that***
> *
>  > there was a reason Google and the other authors of that extension****
>  > needed it a fixed size at the time.  Something about the RP popping****
>  > the window and the IdP needing to know the size to display text
> properly.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > Now that we assume browsers are JS capable (Not so true 5 years ago)***
> *
>  > the IdP can likely dynamically determine the size.  It might still be**
> **
>  > a good idea to recommend a hight x width ratio.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > JainRain and others can probably say what the current best practice is.
> ****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > John B.****
>  >   On 2013-10-22, at 11:40 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones at microsoft.com>*
> ***
>  > wrote:****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >    Microsoft developers were asking where the 450x500 dimensions came**
> **
>  > from and if they’re the right ones.  Who know the history of where****
>  > these dimensions came from?****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >                                                            -- Mike****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > From: Anthony Nadalin****
>  > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:38 PM****
>  > To: Mike Jones; Tim Bray****
>  > Cc: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net****
>  > Subject: RE: [Openid-specs-ab] 450 x 500 recommendation for popup****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > Many devices don’t support 450 x 500 pixels****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > From: openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net****
>  > [mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net<openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net>]
> On Behalf Of Mike****
>  > Jones****
>  > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 10:42 PM****
>  > To: Tim Bray****
>  > Cc: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net****
>  > Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] 450 x 500 recommendation for popup****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > Rather than saying “The popup User-Agent window SHOULD be 450 pixels***
> *
>  > wide and 500 pixels tall” should we say “The popup User-Agent window***
> *
>  > SHOULD be a minimum of 450 pixels wide and 500 pixels tall”?****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >  -- Mike****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray at textuality.com <tbray at textuality.com>]****
>  > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 9:34 PM****
>  > To: Mike Jones****
>  > Cc: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net****
>  > Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] 450 x 500 recommendation for popup****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  > Yeah, no kidding. And what about on Retina displays?  This guidance****
>  > seems in appropriate.****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >   On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Mike Jones****
>  > <Michael.Jones at microsoft.com> wrote:****
>  >****
>  > A question from developers that I forgot to ask on Monday:  Why is 450*
> ***
>  > x****
>  > 500 the recommended window size for display=popup and is this the****
>  > right size?****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >                                                            -- Mike****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
>  >****
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