[Openid-specs-ab] Credential revocation

George Fletcher gffletch at aol.com
Wed Jan 11 20:43:16 UTC 2012


Just to make sure I understand...

You are suggesting that the RPs collect the user's mobile phone number 
and use it to help the user recover their account at the RP if their 
account at the IdP is compromised in some way.

This is a fair amount of work for the RP and significantly reduces the 
benefit of out-sourcing the authentication to the IdP. In the use case 
that I was considering (let's say the RP provides an online chat 
capability) the RP detects that the federated user has received too many 
complaints for SPIM and so the RP marks that federated user as not being 
able to use the service. At this point, when the "blocked" user tries to 
use the services (with a valid assertion from the federated IdP), the RP 
will want to try and help the user do "something" to prove they are the 
"good" user. This is a non trivial use case. As the RP doesn't really 
have anyway to determine if the federated user is just a "bad" user or a 
"good" user whose account has been compromised.

Maybe what we need is a new message that allows the RP to inform the IdP 
that they have "blocked" the user for some reason. The IdP could then 
potentially return some code as to whether the IdP thinks the user 
"good" or not. Basically, the RP and the IdP need to coordinate in some 
way to help the "good" user get access to their services. It's kind of a 
joint problem. I do agree that the IdP doesn't want to be constantly 
pushed to do "password reset" flows.

Thanks,
George

On 1/11/12 3:12 PM, Breno de Medeiros wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:39, George Fletcher<gffletch at aol.com>  wrote:
>> It could be some other signal. In many cases, the way a good user get's
>> their account "back" is by going through a password reset flow. In this
>> case, the only party capable of doing the "password reset flow" is the IdP.
>> The key is to help the "good" user regain access to the services of the RP.
>> In this case, the RP needs some assurance that the IdP has re-validated the
>> user and is making a "claim" that this is a "good" user.
> I think password reset is tricky because it's a very expensive
> operation in terms of user experience impact. I expect that IDPs will
> not want to honor RP requests for this in the absence of first-hand
> knowledge of security practices established by the RP and how they
> arrive at the conclusion that password reset is needed.
>
> A more likely route for RPs to do is to implement account recovery
> processes. For example, by collecting a phone number for SMS-based
> account reset -- and requiring users to go through a flow where they
> attest that they changed their IDP password and provide the requested
> recovery information.
>
>> Thanks,
>> George
>>
>> On 1/11/12 2:34 PM, John Bradley wrote:
>>
>> Breno, will google as a RP have this use case as well as a RP.
>>
>> If you detect suspicious activity on an account will you want to ask for a
>> password reset or raise some other signal to the IdP?
>>
>> I agree that id_token revocation should be part of the session management
>> spec.
>>
>> John
>> On 2012-01-11, at 4:30 PM, George Fletcher wrote:
>>
>> I agree with Breno that "session" or "id_token" revocation is more
>> important.
>>
>> The RP asking the user to perform a password reset at the IdP is
>> interesting. However, is most of our experience this is really only needed
>> with the user is marked for suspicious activity by the RP and the RP wants
>> the user to go through some flow to "prove" that they own the account. As an
>> RP, we do have this use case.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> George
>>
>> On 1/11/12 2:07 PM, Breno de Medeiros wrote:
>>
>> A more useful feature would be instant session revocation on password
>> resets. That could be implemented entirely on the IDP as an
>> added-feature if the RP supports near-instant detection of session
>> state changes (which I am hoping to document for the JS API).
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:04, John Bradley<ve7jtb at ve7jtb.com>  wrote:
>>
>> It was something that a number of RP brought up in the early discussions.
>>
>> We are more IdP weighted at the moment.  I think it was Facebook that was
>> most interested in this from the IdP.
>>
>> It isn't a priority, but the NIST document reminded me it slipped from the
>> feature list.
>>
>> I agree the other things are higher priority.
>>
>> Just interested in seeing if there is any real interest in the issue.
>>
>> John B.
>> On 2012-01-11, at 3:47 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
>>
>> I'd only add it to a list if we're seeing actual demand for it from
>> deployers.
>>
>> As it is, I think we should focus on addressing review comments received,
>> completing session management, and completing JWE.  And when we finish
>> those, adding self-issued IDs.  That's more than enough to keep us
>> productively busy for the time being.
>>
>>                                -- Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net
>> [mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net] On Behalf Of John Bradley
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 10:20 AM
>> To: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
>> Subject: [Openid-specs-ab] Credential revocation
>>
>> FYI a draft from NIST
>> http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/drafts/nistir-7817/Draft-NISTIR-7817.pdf
>>
>> I don't think his conclusion is necessarily practical, however it is
>> interesting to see what they are thinking.
>>
>> We did talk about having a signalling mechanism from RP to IdP to request a
>> password reset or provide other signalling.
>>
>> That got dropped along the way.
>>
>> Should this get added to a list of possible extensions?
>>
>> John B.
>>
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