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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I suspect this class of issue is quite important to the specs
council members. But…I’m not speaking authoritatively! The power in
such decision making is always function of who pays the bills!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Of course, there is not a single thing that openid does that
other protocols don’t already accomplish (typically using xml ,dsig
and https). But, like any standards-based product, what matters is not the pure
function but the unique design concept that builds an online community
operating a “certain way”. UCI-openid and Shib-SAML could not be
more different in operational concepts, despite having the same functional
output.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I suspect spec council people will want the trust networking topic
addressed according to “the openid philosophy”. It has to smell
like web2.0 in its culture, not like the kind of material that OASIS (or IEEE) would
typically generate. It also has to avoid smelling like a W3C standard, which tends
to be too far out (like the half billion FOAF files that exist… but no
one uses). Though unstated, any design may have to avoid “that”
which induced openid in the first place (being merely the nth websso protocol
to come out of the gate in recent years).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The way the high-level criteria are structured suggests that it’s
a defensive posture and fundamentally a political process - which will require canvassing
the council members rather than rationalizing the content. Its rule system
design pretty obviously allows the “founders” to hold further developments
true to the founding spirit as they see it – and they get to do that outside
of membership control, with no formal accountability ; needing only to claim they
are upholding the “vision”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Nat Sakimura
[mailto:sakimura@gmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Williams<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Recordon; general@openid.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OpenID] CX proposal status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Well, to be clear, I am not
proposing to rubber stamp on JAL implementation. <br>
<br>
That's fairly different than what we would come up. <br>
<br>
For example, JAL implementation actually uses XML contract format with XML Sig.
<br>
I actually prefer that, but I was guessing that this community would want
something not XML nor XML Sig. Of course, if the community wants XML+XMLSig, I
am more than happy. <br>
<br>
It is just the use case from JAL implementation that I am bringing in. <br>
<br>
=nat<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Peter Williams <<a
href="mailto:pwilliams@rapattoni.com">pwilliams@rapattoni.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I'm guessing culturally, that
there are a number of things that need to get dropped.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The notion of "use-case
driven" WG needs to go. I doubt we want to introduce a distinction between
those outputs that are engineered using use-case methods vs those that are not.
Use of one or other method is incidental, and neither supports or limits the
technical work. The WG members should pick one or more once engaged. There is
nothing in a "charter" that has to decide this issue upfront.
(otherwise, it smacks of religion, that introduces politics, that induces
worry.. that causes delay…).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The notion of that the
particular topic (higher assurance protocols for trust network) demands certain
(Security) engineering techniques (e.g. crypto and signatures) should also go.
The WG might want to decide to adopt an existing apparatus, tune commodity
infrastructure (e.g. PKI), posit 2 levels of OPs (just like in IS-IS or OSPF
enterprise backbones),…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>One should be clear that no
additional "profiling" will be required for interworking. I'm not
sure this culture want to adopt the market fragmentation attitudes present in
the SAML adoption space for example. We have to remember this is the web,
focused on consumers (not B2B). B2B is secondary, and must be an
"overlay" on the consumer infrastructure– much like
military folks overlay additional trust on _<i>Commodity</i>_ SSL when needed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>It's an important step for
Openid to frontally address trust networking (as Nate has headed for a year
now). But, the charter needs to generic and open minded, not a rubber stamp of
whatever works at JAL today. At the same time, it needs a practical orientation,
so the debate doesn't just become a tech vendor-fest - each wanting their own
stuff to get adopted to help their mindshare marketing.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> Nat Sakimura [mailto:<a href="mailto:sakimura@gmail.com"
target="_blank">sakimura@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Recordon<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:general@openid.net" target="_blank">general@openid.net</a>;
Peter Williams<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OpenID] CX proposal status</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Right. And the response to them were: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p>On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 4:36 AM, David Recordon <<a
href="mailto:david@sixapart.com" target="_blank">david@sixapart.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style='color:black'>I think that's a fair assessment, though missing
the piece that the proposal hasn't been making it clear enough that CX must
build on top of existing OpenID specifications </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>the revised proposal (a version before the current one on the wiki) clearly
stated it <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
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<div>
<p><span style='color:black'>and that the working group should not be
allowed to produce an indeterminate number of specifications.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>the word "series of" was used to make room for the possibility of
modularization instead of a monolithic one, and it is the scope that limits the
work of the WG and not the number of specs. In the early stage of use case
driven WG, it is often difficult to determine how it is going to be modularized
at the outset. Having said that, I have removed the words "series of"
as well. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>=nat<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
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<div>
<p><span style='color:black'><br>
<br>
I'm looking forward to the call.<br>
<br>
--David</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style='color:black'><br>
<br>
----- "Nat Sakimura" <<a href="mailto:sakimura@gmail.com"
target="_blank">sakimura@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <br>
> Some members of spec council suggested rejection on the basis of (1) the
scope being too wide (2) not getting enough support from the community, i.e.,
probalby on 4.2(c). Some proposers replied back to those points in
specs-council ML that (1) being usecase driven, it may look that scope is wide
but it really is not, (2) it has support from EU, Japan, and US members and
suggested a call to close on this. The call is being planned right now. <br>
> <br>
> Would that be a fair summary? <br>
> <br>
> =nat<br>
> <br>
> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='color:black'>> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Peter
Williams <<a href="mailto:pwilliams@rapattoni.com" target="_blank">pwilliams@rapattoni.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='color:black'>> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Can anyone summarize for folks
here (in ~100 words) the status of the specs council discussion on the CX
proposal?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
<p><span style='color:black'>> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
<p><span style='color:black'>> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
<p><span style='color:black'>> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
<p><span style='color:black'>> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><span style='color:black'><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> general mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:general@openid.net" target="_blank">general@openid.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general" target="_blank">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general</a><br>
> <br>
> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='color:black'><br>
> <br clear=all>
<br>
> -- <br>
> Nat Sakimura (=nat)<br>
> <a href="http://www.sakimura.org/en/" target="_blank">http://www.sakimura.org/en/</a><br>
> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><span style='color:black'>>
_______________________________________________ general mailing list <a
href="mailto:general@openid.net" target="_blank">general@openid.net</a> <a
href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general" target="_blank">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Nat Sakimura (=nat)<br>
<a href="http://www.sakimura.org/en/" target="_blank">http://www.sakimura.org/en/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Nat Sakimura (=nat)<br>
<a href="http://www.sakimura.org/en/">http://www.sakimura.org/en/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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