<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Andrew Arnott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andrewarnott@gmail.com">andrewarnott@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
True. You and I don't need <link> tags with the OpenID URI and can write XRDS docs. But if you want the average user to be able to set up a vanity URL, they need those simpler tags. </blockquote><div><br></div>
<div>+ ∞.</div><div><br></div><div>I will fight tooth and nail to keep basic <link>-based OpenID discovery in the spec. I had a hard enough time delegating my own OpenID yesterday. You'd think that I'm not your average user and could figure this out -- and if *I* had a hard time with it, I can't imagine how normal folks who give a crap about our beautiful fucking snowflake technologies will figure it out.</div>
<div><br></div><div>MySpace theming is the perfect counterpoint to your example Eran -- people figured out how to skin their MySpace profile by dumping CSS into their "About" profile. Browser, designed leniently, fortunately did what they're supposed to do, and responded to user intent.</div>
<div><br></div><div>When I see people try to mark up their pages with microformats and get it wrong (let alone basic HTML), it suggest that we need to make this stuff SO SO SIMPLE. If we can say "edit your homepage and add these two lines", that wins versus "edit your homepage, add this one line, fire up your text editor, create this XML document... blah blah blah. FAIL."</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div>My parents and sisters, who know almost nothing about HTML, still manage to keep blogs on Blogger. They could, with help, add two LINK tags to their blog to managed their own OpenIDs, but they could not be expected to author an XRDS doc. And even if they could, where would they host it? Blogger doesn't allow hosting of arbitrary files like that. Nor would the Content-Type HTTP response header likely be the correct one for said XRDS doc.</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>While I appreciate Eran's point that XRDS should be produced automatically and OpenID should just "happen", that's not how we get web-wide adoption. We get web-wide adoption with one or two lines of HTML added to an HTML template. And nothing more.</div>
<div><br></div><div>We should certainly accommodate more advanced situations -- and develop the full potential of XRD and XRDS, but it should not come at the expense of OpenID delegation or adoption.</div><div><br></div><div>
To echo Andrew's point, folks on shared/hosted services like WordPress.com or Blogger often let you tweak your templates (to a certain degree). Uploading arbitrary XML files is often prohibited, or worse, rewritten as HTML files.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Furthermore, HTML-based delegation enables services (like DandyID: <a href="http://twitter.com/DandyId/status/1100104072">http://twitter.com/DandyId/status/1100104072</a>) to allow OpenID delegation without the need to host an XRDS document for all of its users; it just changes its HTML output.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So, I'm sympathetic to your desires, Eran, but I don't think forcing people to upload/reference another file is a viable solution. It does mean that the OpenID libraries need to be more complicated and more robust, but really, the OpenID libraries should be doing the brunt of the work anyway. Our emphasis should be on making this stuff excruciatingly easy to implement. Consider that, for the most part, Facecbook Connect can be setup with a line of JavaScript (same with Google Friend Connect). We need that level of simplicity if we're going to stand a chance on the open web.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Chris</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div class="Ih2E3d"><br><br></div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Eran Hammer-Lahav <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eran@hueniverse.com" target="_blank">eran@hueniverse.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">It is. I am just saying we don't need so many options (like
<link> elements with the OpenID URI). Simply point everything to just an
XRDS file.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">EHL</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Andrew Arnott
[mailto:<a href="mailto:andrewarnott@gmail.com" target="_blank">andrewarnott@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 08, 2009 9:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eran Hammer-Lahav<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Chris Messina; <a href="mailto:general@openid.net" target="_blank">general@openid.net</a> List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OpenID] HTML-Based Discovery incompatibilities</span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div></div><div>
<p> </p>
<p>Eran,</p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Maybe I misunderstand you, but isn't adding a link to your
XRDS file from HTML in fact one aspect of HTML discovery? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I mean, html discovery can
result in an XRDS doc reference, finding openid.server (et. al) tags, or
nothing at all.<br clear="all">
--<br>
Andrew Arnott<br>
"I [may] not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death
your right to say it." - Voltaire<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<p>On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Eran Hammer-Lahav <<a href="mailto:eran@hueniverse.com" target="_blank">eran@hueniverse.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I would like to see HTML-Based
discovery removed from the spec completely. There is no reason to have it
anymore since you can simply add a link to your XRDS file from HTML and get it
all done there in a consistent way.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">In my upcoming discovery spec I
spell out that resource-consumers must support multiple values in the rel
attribute.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">EHL</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:general-bounces@openid.net" target="_blank">general-bounces@openid.net</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:general-bounces@openid.net" target="_blank">general-bounces@openid.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Messina<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 08, 2009 12:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:general@openid.net" target="_blank">general@openid.net</a>
List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OpenID] HTML-Based Discovery incompatibilities</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>I just read over SS 7.3.3 on HTML-Based Discovery [1], and considering my
experience today trying to re-delegate my OpenID, I've discovered that this
section needs to updated a clarified.<br>
<br>
It turns out that relying parties are not parsing HTML rel values in a standard
way. That is, if there is more than one rel value provided for a link, some RPs
fail, whereas others work fine.<br>
<br>
In other words, this:<br>
<br>
<link rel="<span style="background:#FFFF33">openid2.provider
openid.server</span>" href="<a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/" target="_blank">http://factoryjoe.com/blog/</a>" /><br>
<link rel="<span style="background:#FFFF33">openid2.local_id
openid.delegate</span>" href="<a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/" target="_blank">http://factoryjoe.com/blog/</a>" /><br>
<br>
is not the same as this:<br>
<br>
<link rel="<span style="background:#FFFF33">openid2.provider</span>"
href="<a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/?openid_server=1" target="_blank">http://factoryjoe.com/blog/?openid_server=1</a>"
/><br>
<link rel="<span style="background:#FFFF33">openid2.local_id</span>"
href="<a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/author/factoryjoe/" target="_blank">http://factoryjoe.com/blog/author/factoryjoe/</a>" /><br>
<link rel="<span style="background:#FFFF33">openid.server</span>"
href="<a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/?openid_server=1" target="_blank">http://factoryjoe.com/blog/?openid_server=1</a>"
/><br>
<link rel="<span style="background:#FFFF33">openid.delegate</span>"
href="<a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/author/factoryjoe/" target="_blank">http://factoryjoe.com/blog/author/factoryjoe/</a>" /><br>
<br>
It's my understanding that the rel attribute should be able to contain several
values.</p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>But I can tell you that IntenseDebate, for example, failed when delegation
was setup using the former code. It only worked when I broke out the two links
into four.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I'm not sure if this is an issue with the libraries or what, but I'd like to
know if other people have experienced this problem, and if we can improve the
language in the spec to make sure that people understand that they need to look
for the presence of an element in a rel value -- not that the *entire* value is
one element.</p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Chris<br>
<br>
[1] <a href="http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#html_disco" target="_blank">http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#html_disco</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Chris Messina<br>
Citizen-Participant &<br>
Open Web Advocate-at-Large<br>
<br>
<a href="http://factoryjoe.com" target="_blank">factoryjoe.com</a> # <a href="http://diso-project.org" target="_blank">diso-project.org</a><br>
<a href="http://citizenagency.com" target="_blank">citizenagency.com</a> # <a href="http://vidoop.com" target="_blank">vidoop.com</a><br>
This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ]
private</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Chris Messina<br>Citizen-Participant &<br> Open Web Advocate-at-Large<br><br><a href="http://factoryjoe.com">factoryjoe.com</a> # <a href="http://diso-project.org">diso-project.org</a><br>
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