<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Peter, <div><br></div><div>How about you test the service to see the issues, and if you think there important, it would be great to see if you can get the vendor to fix any issues that come up. If they are unable or unwilling, would you help us find a comparable service that does not have the issues you describe?</div><div><br></div><div>-- Dick</div><div><br><div><div>On 19-Dec-08, at 2:00 PM, Peter Williams wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">This sound like the highest common denominator conception in effect: Users who don’t choose the dominant OPs/IDPs/brands are just placing themselves in the 20%, and thus should really by have learned to “expect” performance/reliability issues. It’s the visa brand model (that won! over the store cards) So you the consumer do have a UCI “free choice” of OPs …as they ARE all equal. But, in reality, some OPs are more equal than others.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">There is an alternative. As “customer,“ Foundation tells outsourcer (“PbWiki”) to use Debian trust model (i.e. CTL=Debian). It would tell it to do this for the Foundation’s pbwiki, but would not gell PBWiki to do it for the wiki its hosting for IBM, say). When the Foundation updates it own reliance policy on CAs, as the dominant SP, it requires PbWiki to apply the same CTP policy to the Foundation’s wiki (within 1h say).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I have no doubt PbWiki will do absolutely nothing for me, a user, if I use their “issues pages”. I am not a customer, and dont pay a dime. I thus have no voice, in any well run business. I’ll just get some faff answer.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">BTW: Thanks to PbWiki for (a) hosting the new wiki (b) being a talking-horse. None of this discussion in any way is supposed to diminish their contribution to the Foundation. I extol their efforts and their willingness to let their offering be used in the public commentary. They sound, like phonefactor do with MyOpenID, like folks who know how to support standards efforts - and get sales lead generation in return. Good for them!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; "><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Chris Messina [<a href="mailto:chris.messina@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:chris.messina@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, December 19, 2008 1:31 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Peter Williams<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dick Hardt; OpenID List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [OpenID] [OpenID board] wiki.openid.net is now set up<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Peter Williams <<a href="mailto:pwilliams@rapattoni.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">pwilliams@rapattoni.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I'd be happy to make trials of some https OpenIDs against Foundation-related service providers, where one would naturally expect what works at 1 to work at the others.<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Great. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Can we agree that the expectation stated above is reasonable (at least for those assertion "consumers" in the Foundation's very own private "affiliation group")?<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Personally I have a hard time agreeing to this. I tend to desire serving the 80% use cases first, and once those are adequately addressed, then I look to see if I can make the experience more tolerable for the remaining 20%.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">If the OpenID community collectively had infinite resources, then I might gladly agree, but that is not the case, therefore when it comes to setting priorities, I tend to think that warming a snail shell's worth of water with a magnifying glass won't get me any closer to raising the temperature of the ocean by a single degree.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Chris<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<br>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:46 AM<br>> To: Peter Williams<br>> Cc: OpenID List<br>> Subject: Re: [OpenID] [OpenID board]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://wiki.openid.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">wiki.openid.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is now set up<br>><br>> Hey Peter<br>><br>> Good suggestions!<br>><br>> Would you be interested in helping check if things work as you would<br>> expect, and if, would you be willing to help make things work as<br>> expected?<br>><br>> -- Dick<br>><br>> On 19-Dec-08, at 11:34 AM, Peter Williams wrote:<br>><br>> ><br>> > Can we login with https OpenIDs?<br>> ><br>> > Can the operator ensure that Foundation operational policy's on CAs<br>> > is enacted by its pbwiki outsourcer (at least for the Foundation's<br>> > particular wiki)?<br>> ><br>> > It will be silly if I can SSO with an https openid to the election,<br>> > but I cannot SSO with the same https openid to the pbwiki. Would<br>> > make the universality of the SSO concept look broken, for a consumer.<br>> ><br>> > I'm going to attempt join my client's (CAcert-endorsed) https Openid<br>> > membership account, for voting purposes.<br>> ><br>> > (Though Eddy might protest that the Foundation is not served by<br>> > agreeing to that business partners legal terms) As a user, I'd want<br>> > the CA-cert endorsed https OpeniD viable for the membership.voting<br>> > site to also work on the Foundation's wiki.<br>> ><br>> > Surely the Foundation's various services would all accept the same<br>> > (https) openid (even when outsourced to some or other SAAS, this<br>> > week)?<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > I'd what the same grade of discovery authentication endorsement<br>> >> -----Original Message-----<br>> >> From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:general-bounces@openid.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">general-bounces@openid.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:general-" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">general-</a><br>> >><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bounces@openid.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">bounces@openid.net</a>] On<br>> >> Behalf Of Scott Kveton<br>> >> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:59 AM<br>> >> To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:board@openid.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">board@openid.net</a><br>> >> Cc: OpenID List<br>> >> Subject: Re: [OpenID] [OpenID board]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://wiki.openid.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">wiki.openid.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is now set up<br>> >><br>> >> Great work on this Chris ... thanks for taking the charge on this.<br>> >><br>> >> - Scott<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Chris Messina<br>> >> <<a href="mailto:chris.messina@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">chris.messina@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> >>> As you've probably seen, we've been making efforts to move the<br>> >>> MediaWiki-based OpenID wiki to PBWiki.<br>> >>> The transition is complete and the new wiki is available<br>> >>> at <a href="http://wiki.openid.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://wiki.openid.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(same as the old address).<br>> >>> Not all pages from the previous wiki have been ported, but the plan<br>> >> is to<br>> >>> mothball that content at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://old-wiki.openid.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">old-wiki.openid.net</a>. The primary reason<br>> for<br>> >> not<br>> >>> moving all the old pages over is that much of the content is out of<br>> >> date,<br>> >>> inaccurate or no longer useful.<br>> >>> In order to edit the wiki, you will need to sign in. Fortunately<br>> >>> this<br>> >> wiki,<br>> >>> unlike the old wiki, permits OpenID authentication:<br>> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://my.pbwiki.com/openid" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">https://my.pbwiki.com/openid</a><br>> >>> If you have any questions, let me know or post them here.<br>> >>> If you have general comments about PBWiki, you can visit their<br>> >> support<br>> >>> forum:<br>> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/pbwiki/topics" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://getsatisfaction.com/pbwiki/topics</a><br>> >>> Thanks,<br>> >>> Chris<br>> >>><br>> >>> --<br>> >>> Chris Messina<br>> >>> Citizen-Participant &<br>> >>> Open Technology Advocate-at-Large<br>> >>><br>> >>> Vote in the OpenID Board Election!<br>> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://tr.im/vote_oidf" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://tr.im/vote_oidf</a><br>> >>><br>> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://factoryjoe.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">factoryjoe.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>#<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://diso-project.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">diso-project.org</a><br>> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://citizenagency.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">citizenagency.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>#<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://vidoop.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">vidoop.com</a><br>> >>> This email is: [X] bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private<br>> >>><br>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>> >>> board mailing list<br>> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:board@openid.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">board@openid.net</a><br>> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/board" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/board</a><br>> >>><br>> >>><br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> general mailing list<br>> >><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:general@openid.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">general@openid.net</a><br>> >><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general</a><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > general mailing list<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:general@openid.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">general@openid.net</a><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>general mailing list<br><a href="mailto:general@openid.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">general@openid.net</a><br><a href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general</a><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br clear="all"><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Chris Messina<br>Citizen-Participant &<br> Open Technology Advocate-at-Large<br><br>Vote in the OpenID Board Election!<br><a href="http://tr.im/vote_oidf" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://tr.im/vote_oidf</a><br><br><a href="http://factoryjoe.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">factoryjoe.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>#<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://diso-project.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">diso-project.org</a><br><a href="http://citizenagency.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">citizenagency.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>#<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://vidoop.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">vidoop.com</a><br>This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>