I feel I need to chime in here.<div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:07 PM, David Recordon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:drecordon@sixapart.com">drecordon@sixapart.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hey Brian,<div>Thanks for more of the backstory here. A few questions:</div><div><br></div><div>1) How was the decision made to use RPX versus investing the energy to update the Rails plugin? My understanding is that Mike Jones was also unaware of the decision to use RPX. I believe that personally I would have also chosen to use RPX so that it would be working a week sooner. That said, if the OpenID Foundation can't make OpenID 2.0 fully work in Rails it seems prudent for the Foundation to help the community fix this problem. I would be happy to see the Foundation provide monetary support in updating the Rails plugin to be in the state that it should for the entire community after the election problem was fixed.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; ">Peat made an engineering decision, ran it by Kissel. I'm glad you would have done that same, it was the pragmatic thing todo. It's my understanding that it was well known to the board circle, that starting late October, Kissel stepped into directing the process of getting the election website/software project out of it's morass.</span><br>
</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div><br></div><div>2) Did JanRain ask the Foundation to purchase an SSL certificate (I generally buy them for around $50/year)? Just as cops aren't allowed to accept free coffee and doughnuts from convenience stores (since it makes the cops prefer that store to others in their patrol zones) is there not a concern that in providing a free service to the Foundation that the Foundation might prefer JanRain to other vendors? If the Foundation truly believes that RPX is the best solution here, taking into account the cost, then it feels like we should be paying for it in one way or another.</div>
<div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; "><div>Are you kidding? You, Scott, Peat & I had a flurry of emails & IM's on Friday about the bruhaha around <a href="http://openid-net.rpx.com" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">openid-net.rpx.com</a>. It was decided to change the trustroot to *.<a href="http://openid.net" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">openid.net</a> asap (as opposed to taking rpx down). You guys had to change the DNS to add the subdomain and the CNAME, how does this surprise you? Our wholesale cost is something like $20, it's all automated on our side. I'll send the foundation the bill.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The grand standing and hypocrisy of this is just outstanding. JanRain donated hardware that <a href="http://openid.net" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">openid.net</a> is running on. JanRain wrote a 5k check to get the foundation going. OSUOSL donates bandwidth &hosting. Vidoop donated many man days of web work for the current site. Many companies have donated legal hours to help the foundation get a clear IPR. When you were at Verisign, you donated resources to do a new logo design. Johannes donated the OpenID trademark. Cordance, SXIP, Verisign and other donated 10s of thousands of dollars to boostrap the bounty program. All of this I applaud as a community helping a non-profit. </div>
</span></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>3) Does Peat, one of the contractors working for Refresh Media who has been building the membership/election tool, also have some form of employment with JanRain? If so, why did you never disclose this and was this started before or after Refresh Media began work on the membership/election tool?</div>
<div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; ">This is public trolling. You asked this question in private email, and got a detailed response from Peat. Let me be clearer. JanRain had an ongoing working relationship with Refresh Media *way* before the the foundation contracted Refresh. I'm sure the OIDF picked Refresh via Scott knowing the success JanRain had with them (I don't know for sure who at the OIDF handled the contract). It was actually a surprise when I found out the OIDF was using them also (several months ago?). I wouldn't be surprised if Vidoop also uses Refresh (I don't know), but it wouldn't bother me. Darin & Peat do good work, and they don't play silly games.</span><br>
</div><div><br></div><div>larry-</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div>
<div>--David</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><div><br><div><div>On Dec 6, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Brian Kissel wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Hello All,</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Thanks to everyone for the feedback on the changes on OpenID login on the OpenID.net website.</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">First, our apologies with the trust root problem that originally pointed to an RPX affiliated trust root. That problem has been fixed. Here's the background for anyone who has questions.</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri" size="4"><span style="font-size:15px"><br>
</span></font></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Refresh Media is the contractor that the OIDF hired to design and implement the polling and elections platforms. Several weeks ago after an OIDF meeting we decided we wanted to make sure that the polling and elections platform were going to be operational in time for an end of the year election. At the time Bill Washburn was incapacitated due to some medical problems, so I volunteered to work with Mike Jones and Refresh Media to make sure the system was operational in time for the elections. </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">After the nominations had started, Refresh Media was having problems getting OpenID to work for login on the OIDF website:</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">"Our experience with the "official" Rails plugins for OpenID authentication has been pretty bad over the last two months. Specifically, it's been a struggle to get it up to speed with the OpenID 2.0 spec, most significantly adding support for i-names and directed identity. There would have been probably another week of development required to overhaul the plugin, but there wasn't enough time to do a proper job for the board elections. JanRain offered RPX as an alternative to get us up and running more quickly. We sent Bill Washburn an e-mail in to check to make sure this was a reasonable approach, but after not hearing back from him made the switch when the situation became urgent."</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">The first implementation of RPX was our free RPX Basic version, which uses the RPX-affiliated trust root since using our Plus or Pro offerings would have required buying a separate SSL cert. After some OIDF members expressed concern with the RPX-affiliated trust root, JanRain paid at its own cost to get a new cert and upgraded the implementation to the Plus, again at no fee to the OIDF.</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">So the system should be working well now, if not please let us know.</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">With respect to whether it's appropriate to be using RPX on the OIDF website or not, it appears that there has been a diversity of opinion. Some of the membership has applauded the improvements in ease of use and reliability, some have concerns about using any vendor products on the official OIDF site. I will point out that there is no mention of JanRain nor RPX on the implementation on the OIDF login implementation. If, after having now fixed the trust root problem, there is still a desire to remove RPX we can certainly do that but Refresh Media will still have to fix the initial problems that it was addressing.</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">If a diversity of opinion remains, we could use our newly implemented polling survey tool to see what the majority of the members would like to see happen.</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:navy">Cheers,</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:navy"></span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:navy"><br>Brian</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:navy">==============</span></b></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:navy">Brian Kissel</span></b></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:navy">Cell: 503.866.4424</span></b></div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:navy">Fax: 503.296.5502</span></b></div>
</div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div>
<div><div style="border-right-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-left-style:none;border-width:initial;border-color:initial;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(181, 196, 223);border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in">
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif"><span> </span><a href="mailto:general-bounces@openid.net" target="_blank">general-bounces@openid.net</a> [<a href="mailto:general-bounces@openid.net" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces@openid.net</a>]<span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>David Recordon<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Friday, December 05, 2008 11:31 AM<br><b>To:</b><span> </span>Chris Messina<br><b>Cc:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:general@openid.net" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">general@openid.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [OpenID] Changes to the OpenID Foundation member page login</span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
</div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">Agreed with Chris here. I don't inherently have a problem with using RPX since it does provide value, but the trust root needs to be fixed and far more transparency added by the Foundation when choosing to use a vendor's product.</div>
<div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
I'm also concerned about some of the optics when it comes to JanRain. As far as I can tell JanRain has started a consulting engagement when one of the developers the OpenID Foundation retained to build the membership and elections tool. The elections tool now has JanRain's solution in it.</div>
</div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
Given Brian Kissel's growing involvement in the Foundation the past few months I would have expected him to disclose this as the CEO of JanRain especially as he's currently running for a *community* board seat in the election.</div>
</div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
As to the developer himself, I have no idea if he has a NDA with JanRain that might have prevented this, if he did disclose it to the committee of the Foundation that engaged him, or what. I'm much less concerned about his role in all of this as I'm sure in both engagements he's just doing what he's being paid to do.</div>
</div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
--David</div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div><div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
On Dec 5, 2008, at 11:08 AM, Chris Messina wrote:</div></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><br><br></div><div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Steven Livingstone-Perez <<a href="mailto:weblivz@hotmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">weblivz@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">I don't really have much of a say on this (other than being a new member)<br>
and you may 100% disagree with me, but IMHO there *is* an argument that in<br>using best of breed products we can demonstrate the power of OpenID to users<br>... compared with the cost/effort to implement something that already does a<br>
really good job.</div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
No argument there. Making OpenID seem awesome (or live up to its promised awesomeness) isn't really something that I'm questioning.</div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
</div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">This kind of experience can be done without the use of a vendor product, though, but requires quite a bit more work and time.</div>
</div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
</div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style:none;border-right-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-width:initial;border-color:initial;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-width:1pt;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">I do understand the endorsement aspect, but on the other hand the UX is the<br>
biggest issue OpenID seems to have at the moment and it seems to me that<br>using such products (so long as they are donated as such and not specific<br>long term to any one company) can only be a positive thing.</div></blockquote>
</div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"><br clear="all">Therein lies the rub. I'm not arguing against using RPX, but for concealing it in the trust root (since currently people end up trusting *.<a href="http://rpxnow.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">rpxnow.com</a><span> </span>rather than<span> </span><a href="http://openid.net" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">openid.net</a><span> </span>— thereby creating a long term situation that's hard to switch from (without users having to *reassociate*)) and for getting some transparency into how the decision to use RPX was made.</div>
<div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
I agree with Eran that the experience is better -- but let's not set a poor precedent in the interest of expediency.</div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
</div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">Chris</div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
<br>--<span> </span><br>Chris Messina<br>Citizen-Participant &<br> Open Technology Advocate-at-Large<br><a href="http://factoryjoe.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">factoryjoe.com</a><span> </span>#<span> </span><a href="http://diso-project.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">diso-project.org</a><br>
<a href="http://citizenagency.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">citizenagency.com</a><span> </span>#<span> </span><a href="http://vidoop.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">vidoop.com</a><br>
This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private</div></div></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif">
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