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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
general-bounces@openid.net [mailto:general-bounces@openid.net] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Peter Williams<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, March 05, 2008
8:08 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> general@openid.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OpenID] Calling
OpenID 2.0 editors (was RE:Problems with OpenID and TAG httpRange-14)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=idOWAReplyText15174>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I like this topic, if only because I think
I finally have enough of a handle of semweb theory to understand it. I also
have enough mental model about the security controls in an openid
infrastructure (woefully under analyzed academically, particularly in the
name/address discovery area) to see the design intent.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On the one hand we are dealing with the core nature of openid discovery
and openid auth - the reliance buy these subprotocols on a resource discovery
protocol (HTTP) that was never intended to play the role that openid puts it
in. "The Web is a specific political experiment in social engineering,
dont mess with our manifesto, OpenIDers!".<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On the other hand, openid is imposing identity semantics on the
internet/web - and need not be limited to the semantics of bearer protocols.
"Its just a bit pipe, stupid."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[=Drummond] I agree, Peter. I think OpenID
is adding semantics to HTTP URIs that do not exist at the HTTP protocol layer.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>As OpenID is not really leveraging HTTP in its as-designed role:
identify and locate web resources. Openid is certainly not leveraging the
use of HTTPS in its as-designed role: obtain assurance for a secure pipe
terminating at a certified security-endpoint known as "a website->DNS
binding". Doing neigher of those things, what is it doing? An OpenID OP is
really "making a statement about" resources (and one day may
even fullfill its vision to make statements about assurance).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[=Drummond] Yes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>With little doubt, I the OP can choose to state that this or that
redirect messages (treated as protocol states rather than references to
resources) is an OpenID - a notion that need not be tied to URIs or to the
smeantics of the HTTP service.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[=Drummond] +1.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>As someone said earlier in this thread, an OpenID happens to be a URL,
but that does not mean its a URI - or has URI semantics.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[=Drummond] On that one, I have to correct
you – a “URL” (Uniform Resource Locator) is technially an “HTTP
URI” (or “HTTPS URI” depending on the scheme). The term “URL”
has actually been deprecated by the W3C. See “URIs, URLs, and URNs:
Clarifications and Recommendations”, <a
href="http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/">http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/</a>.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>In making statements about statements, perhaps OpenID is more semweb in
nature than it realizes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[=Drummond] On that, I very much agree. That’s
why I’m interested in why Noah feels that, from an OpenID POV, an HTTP
redirect does not translated into an rdf:sameAs statement.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>=Drummond <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Noah
Slater<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wed 3/5/2008 6:01 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Drummond Reed<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> david@sixapart.com;
general@openid.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OpenID] Calling
OpenID 2.0 editors (was RE: Problems with OpenID and TAG
httpRange-14)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div><pre style='WORD-WRAP: break-word'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>On Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 07:55:41PM -0800, Drummond Reed wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> I'm not an OpenID editor but I remember that there was a great deal of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> discussion around this and there was a good reason (security as I recall)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> that the final redirect needed to be treated as the claimed identifier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I would love to hear this reasoning because it makes no sense to me at the moment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> 3) >From a SemWeb standpoint, I believe the right answer is that ALL the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> identifiers in the chain - the original identifier, all redirects, and any<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> "override" back from the OP - should all be considered synonyms for the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> identified resource. In other words, rdf:sameAs statements.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This is incorrect. 303 redirects do not imply rdf:sameAs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Noah Slater <http://bytesexual.org/><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>general mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>general@openid.net<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/general<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>
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