[OpenID] Open Challenge to webfinger and XRD

Mon Oct 19 23:06:29 UTC 2009

Let me give an example.

thread-safe.net is my openID so my personal XRD describing my  
relationship to linked resources such as an openID service provider is  
described there.

I may also have other services on my site that need to have there XRD  
retrieved via the host-meta XRD.

I don't want my personal XRD to have the link templates for resolving  
XRD on the site.

I need something else to use for the subject of the host-meta XRD.

Having two XRD with the same subject doesn't seem like a good idea.

LRDD is looking for a way to indicate that the XRD applies to the DNS  
host as a whole rather than the URI. (For email, xmpp etc)

You could make all http:// URL with no path "Special" but that stops  
people from using XRD to describe the URL itself.  At least in the  
openID case that would not work for many people.

Regards
John Bradley

On 2009-10-19, at 7:43 PM, Santosh Rajan wrote:

> What is the difference between "describing meta data of root http  
> resource" and "describing meta data of the host" from a DNS point of  
> view? None. They are the same. It can be described by a URI. "http://example.com 
> ".
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 3:50 AM, Dirk Balfanz <balfanz at google.com>  
> wrote:
> XRD prescribes an (optional) Subject element, which is a URI. The  
> URI in the Subject element is the URI of the resource that is  
> described by this XRD.
>
> So,
>
> <Subject>http://example.com</Subject> // describes meta data of root  
> http resource in example.com
> <Subject>http://example.com/</Subject> // describes meta data of  
> root http resource in example.com
>
> which leaves us with the question of how to say "this document  
> describes meta-data data for the host example.com". The current  
> thinking for host-meta is to say something like
>
> <Host>example.com</Host> // describes meta-data of host example.com
>
> where the Host element is a string, not a URI. For some background,  
> see http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xri/200908/msg00127.html  
> and responses.
>
> Regarding civility: all-caps is not very polite. calling people  
> idiots is not very polite (well, I guess you merely implied it).  
> using lots of exclamation marks is not very polite.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirk.
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Santosh Rajan <santrajan at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> Hi John,
> Let me get this strait here. I am unable to participate in the OASIS  
> discussions because I haven't figured the process yet. And in any  
> case all this has a bearing on OpenID, (it is the no 1 use case).
> What you are saying is
> 1) The host-meta will (MUST) have a <Subject> Element which will be  
> the domain URL of the host. There will be no <Host> element instead.
> 2) (This is not something you have said explicitly) . All XRD's  
> including host-meta "MUST" have "1" <Subject> element as an  
> immediate child element of the XRD Root whose value is a URI  
> describing the subject of the XRD.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 3:04 AM, John Bradley <ve7jtb at ve7jtb.com>  
> wrote:
> Santosh,
>
> That was a thread on the use of signing elements in <Link> elements.
>
> Dirk's use of <Host> in his example XRD is not valid XRD syntax.
>
> It wasn't commented on because it was not the topic of the email  
> thread.
>
> If you have comments on the XRD spec.
>
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/34724/xrd-1.0-wd09.html
>
> You are welcome to submit them through the formal process.
>
> Regards
> John Bradley
>
> On 2009-10-19, at 5:51 PM, Santosh Rajan wrote:
>
>
> Hi John,
> The last time I saw an example of an XRD host-meta is here on 15th  
> Oct here
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xri/200910/msg00055.html
>
> It has a <Host> instead of <Subject>. If you are saying that it is  
> not part
> of the XRD spec and it is part of the host-meta spec, it still  
> doesnt change
> my argument. As an end-user of the the discovery mechanism the  
> effect is
> still the same for me.
>
> You say you have a hard time following me! Isn't it a case of the pot
> calling the kettle black? How many people are going to follow what  
> you have
> said bellow. I will only quote one sentence you have written and  
> ignore the
> rest.
>
>
> "The Subject of a XRD is the <Subject> of the XRD there can be 0 or 1
> in an XRD."
>
> That is exactly what you said. Now tell me how can there be a "0"  
> <Subject>
> for an XRD. What meaning does an XRD have with "0" <Subject>?
>
>
>
>
> John Bradley-9 wrote:
>
> Hi Santosh,
>
> I am having a hard time following your point.
>
> This is the current draft of the XRD spec.
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/34724/xrd-1.0-wd09.html
>
> There is no <Host>  element in the spec.
>
> The Subject of a XRD is the <Subject> of the XRD there can be 0 or 1
> in an XRD.
>
> HostMeta is a spec that uses the OASIS XRD spec.
>
> I know that they want to have what is essentially an abstract Subject.
>
> ie one that is about the host and not the URI.
>
> This is a URL problem and not an XRI one.
>
> Any number of wars have been fought over how to represent non-
> information resources with URI.
>
> We did give the group working on host-meta as a itef spec some options
> on how they might do that.
>
> Using the DNS scheme or a URI fragment are all possibilities.  I don't
> know if they have come to a conclusion.   Whatever they decide someone
> will be unhappy if history is anything to go by on this topic.
>
> There is a public review period for XRD coming up and a process for
> you to make formal submissions if you want to have input but not join
> the TC.
>
> John B.
>
> On 2009-10-19, at 3:27 PM, Santosh Rajan wrote:
>
>
> This is an Open Challenge i am sending to the webfinger, XRD forums.
> These
> guys really think I am an Idiot. "Maybe I am". "BUT I AM NOT GOING
> DOWN
> WITHOUT A FIGHT".
>
> Really, I really don't know. Let us hear the arguments they give.
> Maybe i am
> a brainless stupid, that is why i feel all of them are hollow. But
> let them
> prove I am stupid. "IF THEY CAN", IF they can, we will hand it to
> them, "THE
> IDENTITY OSCAR".
>
>
>
> Hi All,I know you guys don't like to hear from me. I have been told
> so much.
> By your moderators. That people on this forum are not "Happy" to
> hear from
> me.
> Like it or "NOT" you are going to hear from me. I am not sure if
> this post
> of mine will be allowed to be published. But let us see.
> I have so many grouses with "XRD" and today I am going to start with
> my
> first grouse. Since WebFinger by definition is going to follow XRD,
> don't
> argue with me about webfinger. Lets talk about XRD to start with me.
> I am throwing a challenge to all the XRD guys. Prove to me that the
> <Subject> of an XRD host-meta document has to be <Host> instead of
> <Subject>. If you "smart" guys can prove this to me, I will agree
> that "I am
> a complete Idiot". If "NOT" all of you web fingerer's and XRD's are
> Idiots!!!!
>
> -----
>
> Santosh Rajan
> http://santrajan.blogspot.com http://santrajan.blogspot.com
> -- 
> View this message in context:
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>
> -----
>
> Santosh Rajan
> http://santrajan.blogspot.com http://santrajan.blogspot.com
> -- 
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Open-Challenge-to-webfinger-and-XRD-tp25963216p25965303.html
>
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> -- 
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>
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