<html><body><font face=".SF NS">Good afternoon,</font><div><font face=".SF NS"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">Below please find the notes for the DADE CG meeting on January 8, 2025. If you have any questions or corrections for the notes, please let me know. The notes may also be found at <a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/wiki/2025%E2%80%9001%E2%80%9008-Minutes">https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/wiki/2025%E2%80%9001%E2%80%9008-Minutes</a>.</font></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;color:rgb(31,35,40);font-variant-ligatures:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;margin-bottom:0px!important"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Attendees</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Dean H. Saxe</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">@xmlgrrl (Eve Maler)</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">George Fletcher</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Victor Lu</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Mike Kiser</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Welcome and antitrust policy reminder - note it well!</font></p></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Note taker? Eve</font></p></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Agenda bashing</font></p></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">DADE CG meetings update</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">This is the first instance of the APAC friendly meeting time.</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Meetings will alternate every other week, rotating between APAC and EU friendly times.</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">We'll monitor feedback and adjust meeting times further, if needed</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Meeting agenda and minutes will be posted on <a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/wiki/DADE-CG-Meeting-Agendas-&-Minutes" style="box-sizing:border-box">GitHub</a>. The chairs will develop an agenda ~1 week before each meeting. Minutes will be posted shortly after a meeting conlcudes.</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Open Issues</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/issues/9" style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Implications of personhood tokens and DADE</font></a></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Ian has brought up questions of delegation, non-human delegation in particular</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Eve adds questions of "living or non-living person" vs. other more-classic personhood statuses, and potential issues with caching of a credential during when someone has passed</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">George brings up the question of TTL of refresh tokens, and evidence (or lack thereof) of proof of survivorship instructions e.g. for car registrations</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Some government agencies get a feed of death notice notifications, which eventually allows alignment in their systems</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Potential Shared Signals role in such notifications?</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Different US states are inconsistent in capturing death info - many opportunities missed to convey changed status</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">It would be useful to be able to operate on the "set of accounts" held by a person who has passed away, e.g. as represented in a password manager</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">US seems generally uncoordinated and disconnected - are there any other geos that handle things better, to learn from?</font><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Action: Eve to see if Jeff Schwartz of Dentity is interested to weigh in, based on other personhood conversations she's had with him</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Action: Mike K to explore SSF opportunities here with other stakeholders</font></li></ul></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS"><a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/issues/17" style="box-sizing:border-box">DADE Wiki</a> - We have a GitHub wiki that needs to be refactored, looking for volunteers.</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Create pages for resources</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Organize use cases currently captured in issues</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Navigation</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Does Heather Flanagan have expertise on this type of wiki that she'd be willing to contribute?</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">This tech is very flat and page-centric</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS"><a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/issues/18" style="box-sizing:border-box">Document known mechanisms for legacy contacts on large providers</a> - Dean has added a template and a handful of providers. DADE members are encouraged to document their own experiences.</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Please add additional services as pull requests. Having this information will help the CG deliver educational materials.</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Our progress here has slowed for the moment otherwise</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/issues/20" style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Apple Legacy Contacts - Federation of multiple iCloud accounts?</font></a></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Apple seems to have done a lot of work to align multiple logins into an automatically federated "Apple Account" (what used to be "Apple ID")</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Flows adjacent to Legacy Contacts, which worked well, are not so copacetic</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Password changes are confusing (and frightening!)</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Generating app-specific passwords have a similar issue</font><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Action: Eve to write up the password change problem for Dean to share with Apple associate Ricky</font></li></ul></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/issues/23" style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Create educational materials ahead of Cyber Security Awareness Month 2025</font></a></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Add feedback to the issue to determine what materials can be delivered.</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Dean is planning and doing a lot of work at home to experiment with good practices and put together helpful resources</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/issues/25" style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Create a short questionnaire regarding the legal/regulatory landscape</font></a></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Hopeful for one or more attorneys to join our calls soon</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Development of use cases - Review and ask for feedback/additional use cases</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><a href="https://github.com/openid/death-and-the-digital-estate/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Use+Case%22" style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Use Cases</font></a></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">In-call ideation follows...</font><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Verifiable credential without being verified? Make the assumption be that you are not real until proven otherwise? Is that viable with naturally-trusting humans?</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Un-identifiable-owner account management and risk of ATO e.g. in the case of GitHub repo management</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">"Anonymous" accounts and the tension with platforms that require "real" identities</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Where people have learned that identifiers are easy to spoof, they do tend to switch to "allow-list only", e.g. with phone spam - even though there are protocols to fix this (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STIR/SHAKEN" rel="nofollow" style="box-sizing:border-box">SHAKEN/STIR</a>), they're not easy to propagate through the ecosystem</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">New use case idea from George: AOL alumni thread that got started by someone who has since passed - casual comms situation that puts someone in an awkward position for notification</font></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Should death certificates be on a public blockchain? But then how to know what accounts correlate with them? And how to avoid abuse of the information by making it "more public"?</font></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">2025 Conferences & DADE</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">IIW</font><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Dean planning to attend and convene at least one session</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Identiverse CFP (Complete)</font><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Dean submitted a panel session</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">EIC</font><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Eve submitted a panel session</font></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><font face=".SF NS">Authenticate 2025</font><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">No CfP open yet</font></li></ul></li></ul></li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0.25em"><p style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Any Other Business</font></p><ul style="box-sizing:border-box;padding-left:2em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box"><font face=".SF NS">Mike K shared this <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FdHq3WfJgs" rel="nofollow" style="box-sizing:border-box">relevant video</a></font></li></ul></li></ul></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">Thank you,</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">-dhs<br clear="all"></font><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">--<br></font><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">Dean H. Saxe, <a href="https://idpro.org/cidpro/">CIDPRO</a></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">Principal Engineer</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">Office of the CTO</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS">Beyond Identity</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face=".SF NS"><a href="mailto:dean.saxe@beyondidentity.com">dean.saxe@beyondidentity.com</a></font></div><div><font face=".SF NS"><br></font><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>