Good question, Snorri. <br><br>What do you mean Mark by derivative marks?<br><br>-bill<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Snorri Giorgetti <<a href="mailto:snorri.giorgetti@gmail.com">snorri.giorgetti@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="FR">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">What do you mean by "derivative"?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I think you confuse the specifications (2.0,…) with the (TM)
Policies</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">(this already happened to me to make this mistake! :)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">-Snorri</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">De :</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Mark Cross
[mailto:<a href="mailto:2008@thirdvisit.co.uk" target="_blank">2008@thirdvisit.co.uk</a>] <br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 12 mars 2008 15:10<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<b>À :</b> Snorri Giorgetti<br>
<b>Cc :</b> Bill Washburn; <a href="mailto:board@openid.net" target="_blank">board@openid.net</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: Trademarks: Problems with derivative Marks</div></div></span></p>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
<p> </p>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">But
I confirm what I have already said: "I/we have no views or plans about the
"derivative" TM"</span></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><br>
Snorri / OIDF,<br>
<br>
ah, so what are you going to do if someone registers one?<br>
<br>
Cheers Mark </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"> </p>
<div>
<p><span>On 12/03/2008, <b>Snorri Giorgetti</b>
<<a href="mailto:snorri.giorgetti@gmail.com" target="_blank">snorri.giorgetti@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Dear Mark,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I speak for OIDE,
and it does not therefore the responsibility of OIDF</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">But I confirm what I
have already said: "I/we have no views or plans about the
"derivative" TM"</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I strongly recommend
you to find another "Business Model" as this concept of TM licensed!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I'm at your disposal
to help you in UK and find better solutions for all…</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Cheers</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">-Snorri</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">De :</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Mark Cross [mailto:<a href="mailto:2008@thirdvisit.co.uk" target="_blank">2008@thirdvisit.co.uk</a>] <br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 12 mars 2008 14:28<br>
<b>À :</b> Snorri Giorgetti<br>
<b>Cc :</b> Bill Washburn; <a href="mailto:board@openid.net" target="_blank">board@openid.net</a></span></p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<span><b>Objet :</b> Re: Trademarks: Problems with derivative
Marks</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"> </p>
<div>
<p>On 12/03/2008, <b>Snorri Giorgetti</b> <<a href="mailto:snorri.giorgetti@gmail.com" target="_blank">snorri.giorgetti@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Dear Mark,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I'm very surprised
by your affirmation with my name because, personally, I have never had any
projects related to the "Certification" and TM.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p><br>
Sorry there Snorri. I thought Certification was part of the OIDF roadmap from
seeing that.</p>
</div>
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<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">The only PDF
document online with the word "Certification" is here <a href="http://www.openidsource.org/OpenID%20Source.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.openidsource.org/OpenID%20Source.JPG</a>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">But I wrote it in
June 2007, and it is no longer relevant! (but as a wiki, I leave it online) And
it was a thoughts about the trust reputation between an OP and an RP to avoid
phishing </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">But I advise instead
to read the draft of the Nat's team here: <a href="http://myidproject.net/?OpenIDReputationService" target="_blank">http://myidproject.net/?OpenIDReputationService</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><br>
I am going to spend some time digesting that</p>
</div>
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<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">But no relation to
the Trademark!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">In Europe we have a
position easy about the TM:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">The name
"OpenID™" is now protected to avoid to be used for other plans that
the "OpenID Framework" exactly as FireFox is a browser and no a brand
of coffee ! ;-) (why not lol)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Nothing more! </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I have much worked
in 2007 on this question of TM and sorry but I'm currently very tired to talk
still about this, </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Now I would use my
time on others important projects… (as local chapters and convince large RPs)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Concretely what do
you want with your OpenID UK TM? = The Money ? :)</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p><br>
I have no idea at momment, it would be nice, but any revenue coming from it has
to "in the spirit" of Brad's guiding statement.<br>
<br>
I am just very nervous that things will happen that require sum financing. Not
having the resources to sort anything out, does not help the OpenID Community?<br>
<br>
Do you have any views on how derivative Trademarks should be licensed?<br>
<br>
Cheers Mark</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;">
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">"I promised to
come soon visit your nice English countryside…"</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Cheers</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">-Snorri</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">De :</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> Mark Cross [mailto:<a href="mailto:2008@thirdvisit.co.uk" target="_blank">2008@thirdvisit.co.uk</a>] <br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mardi 11 mars 2008 23:45<br>
<b>À :</b> Bill Washburn<br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:board@openid.net" target="_blank">board@openid.net</a>;
Snorri Giorgetti<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: Trademarks: Problems with derivative Marks</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Bill,<br>
<br>
I know that Snorri was keen to pursue Certification - or was at one point, I
remember seeing a PDF on his web site, but I cannot find it now.<br>
<br>
Quite simply - how does certification occur without the generation of a derivative
of the OpenID logo Trademark?<br>
<br>
EG This site is only "OpenID v2 compatible logo"<br>
<br>
Now the issuer of that logo has an office to run, and I believe that derivative
logos that are trying to achieve the same thing - should look after universally
similar across the world, as Randy's logo does. This is good for the Community
and good for the end user.</p>
<p>Broaching the question of "revenue for licensing" is in obvious
contradiction to the policy of being entirely free and of course that precludes
anything that is revenue generating including licensing fees or royalties</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
So should no derivative Mark's should be licensed?<br>
<br>
I don't think this is practical - nor desirable for the Community.<br>
<br>
Assuming that the US OpenID Foundation considers it's actually a good idea to
issue derivative Trademarks, because it offers the Community and Users great
advantages eg Certification etc<br>
<br>
Then who is going to administer derivative Trademarks in each legal
jurisdiction?</p>
<p>Honestly, I simply can't parse well the "situation" as you
describe it. Please just put your questions on the table directly.
What are you asserting and what do you aim to do as a result of those
assertions?</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
Derivative Trademarks will be a huge factor in the uptake of OpenID in my
opinion.</p>
<p>so to me this feels like a question that is an attempt to somehow get the
nose of the camel into the tent. </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
:-) I guess so.<br>
<br>
Now you/the US Foundation can take the view that you still cannot understand
where I am coming from, which is fair enough. Then I believe that in the
next couple of months the current Trademark holders will be approached about
derivative Marks:<br>
<br>
a) The Foundation provides direction and suggests a policy to the Trademark
holders globally, so everybody does something similar in a coordinated fashion<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
b) We muddle along like we are doing now, which I personally think is a bad
option<br>
<br>
I am sorry if this email comes over badly, I am just frustrated that since Nov
07, nothing on the Trademark front "appears" to have moved forwards
and I see brand management of OpenID as really crucial.</p>
<p>What are you asserting and what do you aim to do as a result of those
assertions?</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
See dialog on the Legal mailing list?<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Mark</p>
<div>
<p>On 11/03/2008, <b>Bill Washburn</b> <<a href="mailto:bill@oidf.org" target="_blank">bill@oidf.org</a>> wrote:</p>
<p>Mark,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your note. I have read and reread your email, specifically the
parts about:<br>
<br>
a) "How should the revenue for licensing be distributed - if a holder
wishes to?"<br>
<br>
and <br>
<br>
b) the "situation" and the follow-on question leave me with a sense
of real concern. <br>
<br>
Could you please clarify? Broaching the question of "revenue for
licensing" is in obvious contradiction to the policy of being entirely
free and of course that precludes anything that is revenue generating including
licensing fees or royalties, so to me this feels like a question that is an
attempt to somehow get the nose of the camel into the tent. Or are am I
missing something?<br>
<br>
Honestly, I simply can't parse well the "situation" as you describe
it. Please just put your questions on the table directly. What are
you asserting and what do you aim to do as a result of those assertions?<br>
<br>
Cordially,<br>
-bill</p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<p>On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Mark Cross <<a href="mailto:2008@thirdvisit.co.uk" target="_blank">2008@thirdvisit.co.uk</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p>Dear Bill,<br>
<br>
Sorry for not writing sooner, I had to attend a family funeral this week and
have been Net less.<br>
<br>
With regards to our conversation two Fridays back my illustration is as
follows:<br>
<br>
As a Trademark holder - by accident because I needed to protect the domain, I
do see a lot of problems with derivative Marks.</p>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li>The brand needs to be protected</li>
<li>How should the revenue for licensing be
distributed - if a holder wishes to?</li>
</ol>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b>Situation:</b><br>
<br>
Having got the Trademark I decided that given that absolutely no provincial
(local) Angel Investment network understands OpenID, I might as well register a
derivative mark to raise money through certification, to fund both myself and
further OpenID in the UK.<br>
<br>
Whilst as I the own the Mark I have no qualms about doings this, but I do have
an ethical dilemma that profit should be further split between, Brad,
Randy and the OpenID Foundation US/Europe/UK.<br>
<br>
<b>Question:</b><br>
<br>
Would the board like to offer any advice on this to me as an individual, and or
suggest ideas that could be promoted to the other holders?<br>
<br>
Cheers Mark<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br>