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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think we can definitely distill this
into bullet points. The IPR policy is probably the most complicated and foreign
to people. I think my “process” proposal can be boiled down to a handful of
bullet points. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Its kinda like the spec itself – you read
it without any intro and it looks kinda complicated. But if you get a 50,000
foot view at first, most of the verbiage turns out to be relatively detailed
stuff you can safely ignore assuming you aren’t a core spec developer. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m guessing it’s the shock of the
verbiage that got you – once you read through it, you’ll find that in practice,
its lightweight and everyone who is operating under it will (I think) mostly be
able to forget about it. That’s the goal, at least. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m going to attempt to compose an intro
letter today (probably tonight) and pass it out here and to Mike Jones and the
other MS folks and we can start on discussions and plans on legal@.. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> -Gabe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
board-bounces@openid.net [mailto:board-bounces@openid.net] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Johannes Ernst<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:19
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">board@openid.net</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OpenID board] IPR
Policy and Process Proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi Gabe,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>first let me be clear that it is much better to have a (complex) IPR
policy than not having any at all. I am grateful to you and everybody else who
has contributed to this so far.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Also to be clear, my measurement of complexity is very crude: the
amount of time I (or anybody else) expects to need to spend until they
understand the IPR policy. That's the equivalent of "how many screens do I
need to click through to sign up" somewhere. The longer it is, the less
likely it is that people will get involved. So far, we've been doing
excellently well on that measure:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>"Nobody should own this ... " etc can be read and understood
in about 10 seconds. I'm afraid that we are moving that measure up to 1 hour
plus.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It may be that it simply cannot be done in, say, 5 minutes. In which
case, well, that's what we have to live with. Not being a lawyer, I will need
to trust you and others to make that judgment call for us.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I'm just asking: is there some way we can simplify, even at the cost of
moving from a 99% solution to an 80% solution (but not a 20% solution.) If the
answer is no, well, so be it. If if the answer is "perhaps a bit", it
should be worthwhile to pursue this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Makes sense?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Johannes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Apr 23, 2007, at 18:02, <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Gabe Wachob</st1:PersonName>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Johannes-<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>I just dont see how Microsoft or anyone else on their
scale is going to contribute without something much more rigorous in place than
what we have now. Verisigns participation has been great, but I dont think the
IPR issue with Verisign is completely clear to outside parties, or even me! <O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>You actually document some issues yourself, Johannes, in
discussions late last year. For example:<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P><a
href="http://osdir.com/ml/web.openid.specs/2006-12/msg00036.html">http://osdir.com/ml/web.openid.specs/2006-12/msg00036.html</a><O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>What is too complicated in the current proposal? Its
much lighter-weight than any standards body I know of, and yet requires *<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>no new behavior</span></b>* of most people
participating now (those who dont care about ever asserting IPR rights). It
puts the onus of extra work on those who only want to commit to a more specific
set of licensing, as it should. Simple things simple, complicated things more
complicated. If dont care about protecting your IPR w/r/t OpenID, then you do
nothing. If you do care, then you have an extra step to do. <O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>As for the language of the IPR policy itself, I actually
think its fairly straightforward lawyers will have to gnaw on it of course (if
we dont get started on that asap, well never make IIW, to be honest). But I
dont think its all that complicated compared to most IPR agreements Ive seen.
Compare to W3C: <a href="http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/">http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/</a>
or OASIS: <a href="http://www.oasis-open.org/who/intellectualproperty.php">http://www.oasis-open.org/who/intellectualproperty.php</a>
or the IETFs (which I think is getting an overhaul?): <a
href="http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3979.txt">http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3979.txt</a>
<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>Were not forming a standards body here, were just trying
to make the environment good enough to attract a wider set of participants and
adopters. Both sides are going to have to work a little bit in a new way, I
think. To put a challenge to you, can you give examples of grassroots
communities outside formal SDOs adopting IPR policies that are both acceptable
to large IPR-holding organizations as contributors and as 3<sup>rd</sup> party
adopters? We should definitely be stealing their ideas rather than coming up
with our own, but Im not finding it <O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>In any case, Ive added some notes on a workplan here: <a
href="http://openid.net/wiki/index.php/IPR_%26_Process_Work_Plan">http://openid.net/wiki/index.php/IPR_%26_Process_Work_Plan</a>
<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>-Gabe<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'><O:P></O:P></span></font>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><O:P></O:P>
<hr<O:P></O:P> size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> board-bounces@openid.net [<a
href="mailto:board-bounces@openid.net">mailto:board-bounces@openid.net</a>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Johannes Ernst<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, April 23, 2007 12:25
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:board@openid.net">board@openid.net</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OpenID board] IPR
Policy and Process Proposal</span></font><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><O:P></O:P>This is
quite complex. Is there a way to simplify and shorten substantially?<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><O:P></O:P>[I just
read both policy proposal and process proposal, and in spite of having read
previous drafts and having an interest in the subject, I suspect I'd have to
spend several more hours to actually understand what all of this means. The
problem is not that I need to take the time, but that such a time requirement
will act as a rather effective barrier for new people to get involved in OpenID
or feeling comfortable about what they are getting themselves into, something
I'd like to avoid if can ...]<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><span style='border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px'><O:P></O:P>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><span style='border-spacing: 0px 0px;
text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;
orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px'>Johannes Ernst<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'>NetMesh Inc.<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><O:P></O:P><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><image001.gif><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><image002.gif><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='border-spacing: 0px 0px;
text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;
orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px'><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="http://netmesh.info/jernst"><span style='border-spacing: 0px 0px;
text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;
orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px'>http://netmesh.info/jernst</span></a></span></span></font></span><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
</div>
<O:P></O:P>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'></span></span><O:P></O:P><image001.gif><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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12.0pt'><image002.gif><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>board mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a href="mailto:board@openid.net">board@openid.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/board">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/board</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div><span style='border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px'><span
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Johannes Ernst<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>NetMesh Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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