[Openid-specs-heart] Persistence of Credentials

Tue Jun 30 00:06:56 UTC 2015

Either they are going to trust the guy who provides the antecedent claim or they are going to revalidate the credentials he\she happened to capture at the start of each transaction.

If the relying party is going to revalidate the credential there isn’t much point in using the antecedent concept.  We are just trusting the provider to store the credentials he collected and present them for us to validate again.

I would argue that historically providers have trusted other providers to sufficiently ID Proof patients that they have a common care delivery relationship with and it is up to the doc to decide if he trust the other doc to do it electronically or not.

That way you only do additional credentialing for the transactions that require it (but not when the purpose is for Treatment between two docs or to communicate with the consumer) hence keeping the overall cost down using the ability to remotely identity proof when the use case requires (self referral for telemedicine, allowing a remote proxy access to a consumer account, presenting medical evidence for beneficiary claims, sharing medical records with insures for life insurance qualification, etc.).

Aaron Seib, CEO

(o) 301-540-2311

(m) 301-326-6843

From: Debbie Bucci [mailto:debbucci at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 7:45 PM
To: Aaron Seib
Cc: Glen Marshall [SRS]; openid-specs-heart at lists.openid.net
Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-heart] Persistence of Credentials

Purely speculation  

Do not think PHR would not store the information only the provider's gold star or trustmark(?) for the source event  -if that was even possible.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 7:38 PM, Aaron Seib <aaron.seib at nate-trust.org> wrote:

Ah – now that is helpful.  I think of it in different terms.  It isn’t so much a credential per se as a claim that the antecedent process took place and if you trust the operator of that process you can trust the claim.

Credential has baggage in my head these days.  Do you need to retain my Driver’s License Number to be trusted to have substantiated that I am who I am through a patient-provider relationship?  

I can trust that the guy who is getting reimbursed by the hospital that credentialed him to provide care in the facility isn’t going to fake a relationship with a patient in most cases and I am not so sure that just because he can produce a matching drivers license number for that person is that big of a evidentiary hurdle for some body intent on committing fraud to acquire.  Hence the excellence of Glen’s question.

What would the pros of storing these be?  Or am I still grasping around in the dark?

Aaron Seib, CEO

(o) 301-540-2311

(m) 301-326-6843

 <http://nate-trust.org> 

From: Debbie Bucci [mailto:debbucci at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 7:27 PM
To: Aaron Seib
Cc: Glen Marshall [SRS]; openid-specs-heart at lists.openid.net
Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-heart] Persistence of Credentials

Aaron,

The context for you and others that follow along  ...  the PHR has a strong token with no identity proofing.  At the time of registration - the token is bound to the credential (binding ceremony) that results in a strong identity.   If there was some persistence in the process - that identity proofing could potentially be reference in the future.

There is a precedence for it in the Fed PKI world  ... antecedent in-person event 

Hence, a proposed antecedent process must 1) meet the thoroughness (rigor) of the in-person event, 2) provide supporting ID proofing artifacts or substantiate the applicant through a relationship, and 3) bind the individual to asserted identity 

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Aaron Seib <aaron.seib at nate-trust.org> wrote:

Glen – can you help me understand what you are asking.  

Should HEART have a constraint on persistence of end-user credentials.

Maybe I am being captain obvious here or I am really stupid (or I am procrastinating on a writing assignment I was giving that isn’t jumping out of my head the way I wish it would) but why on earth would we be considering the persistence of user attributes in this domain?

Not only do many of the attributes\credentials you list change over time there is no reason that I can imagine why we need to store such information at a EMR\PHR when we have modern credential management processes.  

Again, ready for my beating as I wasn’t on the call and am procrastinating on a writing assignment.  J

Are there proponents of this idea?  It just seems like another place for sensitive data to be breached from to me.  The only reason you might do it is that it is a convenience to the consumer and he granted you permission to store it, right?  I wouldn’t call that a credential anymore.  I might be using the language differently.

Aaron

Aaron Seib, CEO

(o) 301-540-2311

(m) 301-326-6843

 <http://nate-trust.org> 

From: Openid-specs-heart [mailto:openid-specs-heart-bounces at lists.openid.net] On Behalf Of Glen Marshall [SRS]
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 4:43 PM
To: Debbie Bucci; openid-specs-heart at lists.openid.net
Subject: [Openid-specs-heart] Persistence of Credentials

In today's call I asked a question regarding the persistence of end-user identification credentials.  Some of the ones being discussed, e.g., driver's license, credit card, e-mail address, etc., have a significant likelihood of changing between patient visits.  End-users are also likely to fail to remember what credentials were used previously.

Given this, should HEART have a constraint on the persistence of end-user credentials?

There may be similar issues with client systems maintaining current credentials. 

Glen F. Marshall
Consultant
Security Risk Solutions, Inc.
698 Fishermans Bend
Mount Pleasant, SC 29464
Tel: (610) 644-2452 <tel:%28610%29%20644-2452> 
Mobile: (610) 613-3084 <tel:%28610%29%20613-3084> 
gfm at securityrs.com
www.SecurityRiskSolutions.com

On 6/28/15 08:42, Debbie Bucci wrote:

When: 1 PM PST/4 PM EST 

Where: Gotomeeting – https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/785234357

US phone number:  <tel:%2B1%20%28619%29%20550-0003> +1 (619) 550-0003. Access Code 785-234-357

Agenda :

·        Roll call 

·         PHR or Patient Portal (client)  to PCP or Patient portal (protected resource)  Introduction

·        AOB

For tomorrow's call,  I would like us to focus on the following assumption/fact: The PHR is already recognized by the PCP prior to the patient's engagement.   

What are the sequence flows, scopes and policy decisions that need be prearranged/agreed upon to support the following during the patient registration process:

*	Update the patient portal from her PHR.
*	Update her PHR from the patient portal
*	Sync the patient portal with her PHR.

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