<div dir="ltr">perhaps you can describe why the current spec fails to meet you needs.<div>The FAPI read write #2 profile seems to require openid consent which seems to require the sid.</div><div>
<span style="font-size:small;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">The sid can be ephemeral.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:small;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">So, what's missing for you now?</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Peace ..tom</div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt via Openid-specs-fapi <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div></div><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>OpenID Connect already has the mechanics to request and attest LOA for authentication (acr_values, acr claim). I think identity proofing requires other mechanisms that allow to complement the particular user claims (e.g. proofing for email works different and has other metadata than name).</div><div><br></div><div>kind regards,</div><div>Torsten.</div><div><br></div><div>PS: what is the relation of this topic to the initial topic of the thread?</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>Am 29.07.2018 um 21:49 schrieb Ralph Bragg via Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.<wbr>openid.net</a>>:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Tom,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Could this not be conveyed by a claim instead of a scope? i.e I require LoA or Vector of trust to meet a certain level for the user.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">RB<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi-bounces@<wbr>lists.openid.net</a>> on behalf of Tom Jones via Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.<wbr>openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Financial API Working Group List <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.<wbr>openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, 29 July 2018 at 20:28<br>
<b>To: </b>Financial API Working Group List <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.<wbr>openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Tom Jones <<a href="mailto:thomasclinganjones@gmail.com" target="_blank">thomasclinganjones@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Openid-specs-fapi] FAPI Profile and openid scope value<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">why would the needs of the rp impact the open id provider? <u></u>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I can think of one reason that has been defined, that of assurance.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The RP may require a certain level of assurance, vis a vis the NIST sp 800-63 (either v2 or v3)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would recommending a scope for assurance.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Peace ..tom<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Dave Tonge via Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.<wbr>openid.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Hi Torsten<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">We have an issue open to make it more explicit about the `openid` scope value:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><a href="https://bitbucket.org/openid/fapi/issues/149/make-it-clear-that-the-entire-flow-is-oidc" target="_blank">https://bitbucket.org/openid/<wbr>fapi/issues/149/make-it-clear-<wbr>that-the-entire-flow-is-oidc</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Your use-case is definitely valid and we've heard it a few times and definitely need a solution.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">I'm hesitant to say that the hybrid flow should be able to be implemented without the `openid` scope value. My understanding is that many implementations of authorisation servers use the
presence of `openid` in the scope to turn on all the OIDC related features such as: id tokens, hybrid flow, request object, claims parameter, stricter processing rules, etc.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Wouldn't it be better to use another `scope` value for the RP to indicate that it wants a long-lived end-user identifier (and possibly other claims), rather than an "ephemeral subject
identifier". From a spec perspective using a scope value of `openid` doesn't' guarantee the RP that they will receive back a long-lived user identifier.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">I agree with you that it would be better to handle both use cases from a single client.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">What do you think about using another scope value?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 at 13:58, Torsten Lodderstedt via Openid-specs-fapi <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-fapi@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-fapi@lists.<wbr>openid.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<br>
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the "Read and Write API Security Profile" mandates the AS to use response type values "code id_token" or "code id_token token“ meaning an ID Token is provided in any case. In my understanding ID Token is primarily used to further secure the interaction, e.g.
by providing the client with an iss claim used to detect mix-up.<br>
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Is it possible for the RP to use this functionality without the „openid" scope value? The reason I’m asking is I would like to let a RP/client differentiate use cases where it just wants to obtain an access token for API access but is not interested in the
user id and use cases where the same client (now as RP) wants to obtain user id and further claims. Using the scope value „openid“ to differentiate those use cases seams straightforward to me. Otherwise the RP would need to use two different client ids with
different sub claim policies for the different use cases, which most likely will cause complexity in the AS/OP's consent handling as I assume the RP would like to be the same legal entity in both cases.
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Thoughts? <br>
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kind regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:#00a4b7">Dave Tonge</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:#00a4b7"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Open Sans",serif;color:#333333">CTO<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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