[Openid-specs-fapi] FAPI Profile and openid scope value

Tue Jul 31 03:28:47 UTC 2018

A clarification: I suppose you mean `sub` by `sid`. Is that right?

To me, `sub` seems to be perfectly adequate, especially if you want to be sure that the subject, while ‘anonymous’ to the client, is still KYCed and authenticated for the session. The `acr` values are linked to this `sub` value, not to `nonce` or something, as it is linked to the identity proofing. Additionally, if something happens, the Bank, as a designated opener, can open the transaction and track the subject.

Best,

Nat Sakimura

From: Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi-bounces at lists.openid.net> On Behalf Of Tom Jones via Openid-specs-fapi
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:31 AM
To: Financial API Working Group List <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>
Cc: Tom Jones <thomasclinganjones at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-fapi] FAPI Profile and openid scope value

perhaps you can describe why the current spec fails to meet you needs.
The FAPI read write #2 profile seems to require openid consent which seems to require the sid.
The sid can be ephemeral.
So, what's missing for you now?

Peace ..tom

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Torsten Lodderstedt via Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>> wrote:
Hi,

OpenID Connect already has the mechanics to request and attest LOA for authentication (acr_values, acr claim). I think identity proofing requires other mechanisms that allow to complement the particular user claims (e.g. proofing for email works different and has other metadata than name).

kind regards,
Torsten.

PS: what is the relation of this topic to the initial topic of the thread?

Am 29.07.2018 um 21:49 schrieb Ralph Bragg via Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>>:
Tom,

Could this not be conveyed by a claim instead of a scope? i.e I require LoA or Vector of trust to meet a certain level for the user.

RB

From: Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi-bounces at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi-bounces at lists.openid.net>> on behalf of Tom Jones via Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>>
Reply-To: Financial API Working Group List <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>>
Date: Sunday, 29 July 2018 at 20:28
To: Financial API Working Group List <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>>
Cc: Tom Jones <thomasclinganjones at gmail.com<mailto:thomasclinganjones at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-fapi] FAPI Profile and openid scope value

why would the needs of the rp impact the open id provider?
I can think of one reason that has been defined, that of assurance.
The RP may require a certain level of assurance, vis a vis the NIST sp 800-63 (either v2 or v3)
I would recommending a scope for assurance.

Peace ..tom

On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Dave Tonge via Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>> wrote:
Hi Torsten

We have an issue open to make it more explicit about the `openid` scope value:
https://bitbucket.org/openid/fapi/issues/149/make-it-clear-that-the-entire-flow-is-oidc

Your use-case is definitely valid and we've heard it a few times and definitely need a solution.

I'm hesitant to say that the hybrid flow should be able to be implemented without the `openid` scope value. My understanding is that many implementations of authorisation servers use the presence of `openid` in the scope to turn on all the OIDC related features such as: id tokens, hybrid flow, request object, claims parameter, stricter processing rules, etc.

Wouldn't it be better to use another `scope` value for the RP to indicate that it wants a long-lived end-user identifier (and possibly other claims), rather than an "ephemeral subject identifier". From a spec perspective using a scope value of `openid` doesn't' guarantee the RP that they will receive back a long-lived user identifier.

I agree with you that it would be better to handle both use cases from a single client.

What do you think about using another scope value?

Dave

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 at 13:58, Torsten Lodderstedt via Openid-specs-fapi <openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-fapi at lists.openid.net>> wrote:
Hi all,

the "Read and Write API Security Profile" mandates the AS to use response type values "code id_token" or "code id_token token“ meaning an ID Token is provided in any case. In my understanding ID Token is primarily used to further secure the interaction, e.g. by providing the client with an iss claim used to detect mix-up.

Is it possible for the RP to use this functionality without the „openid" scope value? The reason I’m asking is I would like to let a RP/client differentiate use cases where it just wants to obtain an access token for API access but is not interested in the user id and use cases where the same client (now as RP) wants to obtain user id and further claims. Using the scope value „openid“ to differentiate those use cases seams straightforward to me. Otherwise the RP would need to use two different client ids with different sub claim policies for the different use cases, which most likely will cause complexity in the AS/OP's consent handling as I assume the RP would like to be the same legal entity in both cases.

Thoughts?

kind regards,
Torsten. _______________________________________________
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