<div dir="ltr">David, <div><br></div><div>"claim" is a defined term in OpenID Connect Core 1.0, so it cannot be re-defined by a profile. FYI, it is used 493 times in the OIDC Core 1.0. </div><div>It will cause confusion to the readers if we mix the usage. </div><div><br></div><div>The definition of "credential" seems to be a little in conflict with the way RFC6749 and other OAuth standards use the word: it is for entity authentication specifically. The W3C definition is broadening it up and causes consistency problem from OAuth point of view and from OIDC point of view as it builds on top of OAuth. </div><div><br></div><div>These issues need to be addressed during the spec discussion, probably in the direction that aligning with OIDC in this spec and directing readers to replace the words that appear in external specs in a consistent way. </div><div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div><br></div><div>Nat Sakimura</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:00 AM David Chadwick via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>We do not need to provide definitions as they already exist in
      the W3C VC Data Model Recommendation, so we can simply reference
      them. They are:<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
      </p><dl><dt><dfn id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499dfn-claims">claim</dfn></dt>
      <dd>
        An assertion made about a <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-subjects" target="_blank">subject</a>. </dd>
      <dt></dt><dt><dfn id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499dfn-credential">credential</dfn></dt>
        <dd>
          A set of one or more <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-claims" target="_blank">claims</a> made by
          an <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-issuers" target="_blank">issuer</a>.</dd>
        <dt>A
          <dfn id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499dfn-verifiable-credentials">verifiable
            credential</dfn> is a
          tamper-evident credential that has authorship that can be
          cryptographically
          verified. </dt>
      </dl>
      <p>You will note that the W3C recommendation does not say anything
        about what the assertion may be, but if you look it up in a
        dictionary you will get something like</p>
      <p><span>Assertion - a
          positive statement or declaration, often without support or
          reason <br>
        </span></p>
      <p><span>Please tell me what
          is unclear about the above</span></p>
      <p><span>Kind regards</span></p>
      <p><span>David</span></p>
      <p><span><br>
        </span></p>
    <p></p>
    <div>On 10/05/2021 16:36, Tom Jones via
      Openid-specs-ab wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="auto">And I find the lack of clarity to be extremely
        rude and disrespectful of any sort of meaningful conversation
        about the issues. If you have a better definition of claim,
        please let us hear it.<br>
        <br>
        <div>thx ..Tom (mobile)</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 10, 2021, 8:28 AM
          Oliver Terbu via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="ltr">This is another example of an extremely rude
            and disrespectful tone by the same person:
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>"I want clarity of language. Right now we just have a
              claim = some crap and credential = a pile of crap."</div>
            <div><a href="http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2021-May/008233.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2021-May/008233.html</a></div>
            <div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Oliver</div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 10 May 2021 at
              14:39, Kristina Yasuda via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thank
                  you, Nat.</div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">As
                    promised, I wanted to outline the relationship
                    between "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable
                    Credential Objects" (OIDC4VCO) draft and other
                    existing drafts. (point 2 in this issue) </span></div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">※
                    Note that there was a proposal to rename the draft <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"> "OpenID
                      Connect for W3C Verifiable Presentations", but I
                      will use OIDC4VCO<span> abbreviation for now.</span></span></span><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
                  </span></div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                  <ul>
                    <li><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">Relationship
                          with
                          <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">OpenID
                            Connect </span>Core: OIDC4VCO uses
                          mechanisms already defined in OIDC Core, and
                          does not introduce any breaking changes.</span></span></li>
                    <li>Relationship with SIOP V2 draft: SIOP V2 draft
                      will refer to the OIDC4VCO draft wrt how W3C
                      verifiable presentations (VPs) can be transported
                      using SIOP model, since OIDC4VCO draft defines a
                      generic way how W3C VPs can be used with various
                      OIDC flows including SIOP V2.</li>
                    <li>Relationship with Claims Aggregation draft (and
                      Credential Provider draft once contributed): these
                      drafts will be used by the OP to receive
                      credentials from the Claims Provider, so that the
                      OP will be able to present received credentials to
                      the RP using OIDC4VCO draft. These drafts should
                      be aligned as much as possible.</li>
                    <li>Relationship with DIF Presentation Exchange (PE)
                      draft: DIF PE draft could be used as part of the
                      request syntax in OIDC4VCO draf, which can be
                      discussed once OIDC4VCO draft is adopted. DIF PE
                      is a query language that is protocol agnostic, and
                      it does not replace OIDC4VCO draft.</li>
                  </ul>
                </div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">This
                    is an initial summary and additional input from the
                    editors/working group is very welcome.</span><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">A
                    work item to enable transporting W3C VPs using
                    OpenID Connect, will most likely not be successful
                    outside OpenID Foundation AB/C Working Group,
                    because that is where the collective OpenID Connect
                    <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">
                      expertise resides. </span></span></div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
                    </span></span></div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">Best,</span></span></div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">Kristina</span></span></div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
                    </span></span></div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
                    </span></span></div>
                <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
                <div id="gmail-m_-430984910412175499m_4803601983149473814gmail-m_3578548790420887896divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
                    sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>差出人:</b>
                    Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>>
                    が Nat via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>
                    の代理で送信<br>
                    <b>送信日時:</b> 2021年5月7日 0:55<br>
                    <b>宛先:</b> <a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>
                    <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
                    <b>CC:</b> Nat <<a href="mailto:issues-reply@bitbucket.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">issues-reply@bitbucket.org</a>><br>
                    <b>件名:</b> [Openid-specs-ab] Issue #1229: Adoption
                    of the "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential
                    Objects" (openid/connect)</font>
                  <div> </div>
                </div>
                <div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
                      <div>New issue 1229: Adoption of the "OpenID
                        Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects"<br>
                        <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2Fopenid%2Fconnect%2Fissues%2F1229%2Fadoption-of-the-openid-connect-for-w3c&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=v8JUcUVcU4A%2FlkpyB43J2%2B9DB9axNOyOGjmQAe5GU58%3D&amp;reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2Fopenid%2Fconnect%2Fissues%2F1229%2Fadoption-of-the-openid-connect-for-w3c&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=v8JUcUVcU4A%2FlkpyB43J2%2B9DB9axNOyOGjmQAe5GU58%3D&amp;reserved=0</a><br>
                        <br>
                        Nat Sakimura:<br>
                        <br>
                        SIOP SC recommended the adoption of “[OpenID
                        Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects](<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=LdCCcQ1tptJ290hqLdPsJdDWACLjeswgOwEKvhBi%2FyM%3D&amp;reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=LdCCcQ1tptJ290hqLdPsJdDWACLjeswgOwEKvhBi%2FyM%3D&amp;reserved=0</a>)”
                        \[1\] as a working group item. <br>
                        <br>
                        \[1\] [<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0](https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0](https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0</a>)<br>
                        <br>
                        Some concerns were expressed by a few WG
                        members. <br>
                        <br>
                        This ticket is to give an opportunity for those
                        members to express their concerns and proposers
                        to reply to them.
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        There are a few criteria for non-adoption of
                        documents: namely<br>
                        <br>
                        1. If the draft does not fall into the scope of
                        the WG. <br>
                        2. If the draft is overlapping with existing
                        drafts, the technical content should be raised
                        as an issue and eventually result in PR rather
                        than starting a new draft.
                        <br>
                        <br>
                            1. NOTE: A non-overlapping portion can be
                        made as an independent document so proposers
                        should consider creating such.
                        <br>
                            <br>
                        3. If there is a legal or reputational risk for
                        the OIDF in adopting the document. \(The board
                        may intervene on this ground.\)
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        If the issues are only on the technical nature
                        of the proposed draft that does not fall into
                        the above criteria, then, it should be dealt
                        with during and after the adoption of the
                        document.
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        ‌<br>
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            </blockquote>
          </div>
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        </blockquote>
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      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Nat Sakimura<div>NAT.Consulting LLC</div></div></div>