<div dir="ltr">Tony and I agree on that.  But that depends on existing standards and definitions.<div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="background-color:rgb(242,242,242);color:rgba(0,0,0,0.9);font-family:-apple-system,system-ui,system-ui,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue","Fira Sans",Ubuntu,Oxygen,"Oxygen Sans",Cantarell,"Droid Sans","Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Lucida Grande",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap">Be the change you want to see in the world </span>..tom</div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 9:29 AM nadalin--- via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">One issue is that this is NOTHING about credentials at all, this needs to be removed entirely as we should not be dealing at that level.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Chadwick via Openid-specs-ab<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 10, 2021 9:00 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br><b>Cc:</b> David Chadwick <<a href="mailto:d.w.chadwick@verifiablecredentials.info" target="_blank">d.w.chadwick@verifiablecredentials.info</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Issue #1229: Adoption of the "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects" (openid/connect)<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p>We do not need to provide definitions as they already exist in the W3C VC Data Model Recommendation, so we can simply reference them. They are:<u></u><u></u></p><p><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><dfn id="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580dfn-claims"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">claim</span></dfn><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">An assertion made about a <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-subjects" target="_blank">subject</a>. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><dfn id="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580dfn-credential"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">credential</span></dfn><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">A set of one or more <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-claims" target="_blank">claims</a> made by an <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/#dfn-issuers" target="_blank">issuer</a>.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">A <dfn id="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580dfn-verifiable-credentials"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">verifiable credential</span></dfn> is a tamper-evident credential that has authorship that can be cryptographically verified. <u></u><u></u></p><p>You will note that the W3C recommendation does not say anything about what the assertion may be, but if you look it up in a dictionary you will get something like<u></u><u></u></p><p><span class="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580one-click-content">Assertion - a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason </span><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><p><span class="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580one-click-content">Please tell me what is unclear about the above</span><u></u><u></u></p><p><span class="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580one-click-content">Kind regards</span><u></u><u></u></p><p><span class="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580one-click-content">David</span><u></u><u></u></p><p><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 10/05/2021 16:36, Tom Jones via Openid-specs-ab wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">And I find the lack of clarity to be extremely rude and disrespectful of any sort of meaningful conversation about the issues. If you have a better definition of claim, please let us hear it.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">thx ..Tom (mobile)<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, May 10, 2021, 8:28 AM Oliver Terbu via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal">This is another example of an extremely rude and disrespectful tone by the same person: <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"I want clarity of language. Right now we just have a claim = some crap and credential = a pile of crap."<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2021-May/008233.html" target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-specs-ab/2021-May/008233.html</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Oliver<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 14:39, Kristina Yasuda via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Thank you, Nat.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">As promised, I wanted to outline the relationship between "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects" (OIDC4VCO) draft and other existing drafts. (point 2 in this issue) <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">※</span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"> Note that there was a proposal to rename the draft <span style="background:white"> "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Presentations", but I will use OIDC4VCO abbreviation for now.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:12pt;background:white">Relationship with OpenID Connect Core: OIDC4VCO uses mechanisms already defined in OIDC Core, and does not introduce any breaking changes.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:12pt">Relationship with SIOP V2 draft: SIOP V2 draft will refer to the OIDC4VCO draft wrt how W3C verifiable presentations (VPs) can be transported using SIOP model, since OIDC4VCO draft defines a generic way how W3C VPs can be used with various OIDC flows including SIOP V2.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:12pt">Relationship with Claims Aggregation draft (and Credential Provider draft once contributed): these drafts will be used by the OP to receive credentials from the Claims Provider, so that the OP will be able to present received credentials to the RP using OIDC4VCO draft. These drafts should be aligned as much as possible.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:12pt">Relationship with DIF Presentation Exchange (PE) draft: DIF PE draft could be used as part of the request syntax in OIDC4VCO draf, which can be discussed once OIDC4VCO draft is adopted. DIF PE is a query language that is protocol agnostic, and it does not replace OIDC4VCO draft.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">This is an initial summary and additional input from the editors/working group is very welcome.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">A work item to enable transporting W3C VPs using OpenID Connect, will most likely not be successful outside OpenID Foundation AB/C Working Group, because that is where the collective OpenID Connect <span style="background:white">expertise resides. </span><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black;background:white">Best,</span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black;background:white">Kristina</span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><hr size="2" width="98%" align="center"></div><div id="gmail-m_-2842421694520043580m_4803601983149473814gmail-m_3578548790420887896divRplyFwdMsg"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">差出人</span></b><b><span style="color:black">:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>> </span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">が</span><span style="color:black"> Nat via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> </span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">の代理で送信</span><span style="color:black"><br></span><b><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">送信日時</span></b><b><span style="color:black">:</span></b><span style="color:black"> 2021</span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">年</span><span style="color:black">5</span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">月</span><span style="color:black">7</span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">日</span><span style="color:black"> 0:55<br></span><b><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">宛先</span></b><b><span style="color:black">:</span></b><span style="color:black"> <a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a> <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br><b>CC:</b> Nat <<a href="mailto:issues-reply@bitbucket.org" target="_blank">issues-reply@bitbucket.org</a>><br></span><b><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">件名</span></b><b><span style="color:black">:</span></b><span style="color:black"> [Openid-specs-ab] Issue #1229: Adoption of the "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects" (openid/connect)</span> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">New issue 1229: Adoption of the "OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects"<br><a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2Fopenid%2Fconnect%2Fissues%2F1229%2Fadoption-of-the-openid-connect-for-w3c&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=v8JUcUVcU4A%2FlkpyB43J2%2B9DB9axNOyOGjmQAe5GU58%3D&amp;reserved=0" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2Fopenid%2Fconnect%2Fissues%2F1229%2Fadoption-of-the-openid-connect-for-w3c&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=v8JUcUVcU4A%2FlkpyB43J2%2B9DB9axNOyOGjmQAe5GU58%3D&amp;reserved=0</a><br><br>Nat Sakimura:<br><br>SIOP SC recommended the adoption of “[OpenID Connect for W3C Verifiable Credential Objects](<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=LdCCcQ1tptJ290hqLdPsJdDWACLjeswgOwEKvhBi%2FyM%3D&amp;reserved=0" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036105710%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=LdCCcQ1tptJ290hqLdPsJdDWACLjeswgOwEKvhBi%2FyM%3D&amp;reserved=0</a>)” \[1\] as a working group item. <br><br>\[1\] [<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0%5d(https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0](https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fpipermail%2Fopenid-specs-ab%2Fattachments%2F20210505%2Fa198527a%2Fattachment-0001.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=38hwxalY%2FRk1ypItq%2Bnxnhd26OE4uUJ79XUm1T8DVNw%3D&amp;reserved=0</a>)<br><br>Some concerns were expressed by a few WG members. <br><br>This ticket is to give an opportunity for those members to express their concerns and proposers to reply to them. <br><br>There are a few criteria for non-adoption of documents: namely<br><br>1. If the draft does not fall into the scope of the WG. <br>2. If the draft is overlapping with existing drafts, the technical content should be raised as an issue and eventually result in PR rather than starting a new draft. <br><br>    1. NOTE: A non-overlapping portion can be made as an independent document so proposers should consider creating such. <br>    <br>3. If there is a legal or reputational risk for the OIDF in adopting the document. \(The board may intervene on this ground.\) <br><br>If the issues are only on the technical nature of the proposed draft that does not fall into the above criteria, then, it should be dealt with during and after the adoption of the document. <br><br>‌<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Openid-specs-ab mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br><a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fopenid-specs-ab&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=zj60E0N480Cv0Pqtne%2FbRk%2FOu8%2BJ8toFtZ6kNncNnHY%3D&amp;reserved=0" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.openid.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fopenid-specs-ab&amp;data=04%7C01%7CKristina.Yasuda%40microsoft.com%7C546f6f574aa946624ea408d910a766d3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637559134036115666%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=zj60E0N480Cv0Pqtne%2FbRk%2FOu8%2BJ8toFtZ6kNncNnHY%3D&amp;reserved=0</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>Openid-specs-ab mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab" target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>Openid-specs-ab mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab" target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>Openid-specs-ab mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab" target="_blank">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab</a><u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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