<div dir="auto">Nat: I am not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that the verification is claimed by the presence of an acr?</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:24 PM Nat Sakimura <<a href="mailto:sakimura@gmail.com">sakimura@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div dir="ltr">For me, "verified claim" is the claim that the issuer claims that they verified. It is still a claim and it is up to the receiving party to believe it or not.</div>
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Nat Sakimura<br>
<a href="https://nat.sakimura.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://nat.sakimura.org</a>
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<div name="messageReplySection">2019年6月17日 6:11 +0900、Tom Jones via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>のメール:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Ah Tony - the JWT definition seems good enough to me. Provide value can be a complex structure like an address.
<div><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Here is the definition in my glossary <a href="https://tcwiki.azurewebsites.net/index.php?title=Claim#Full_Title_or_Meme" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">A statement by or about a </a></span><a href="https://tcwiki.azurewebsites.net/index.php?title=Claim#Full_Title_or_Meme" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Subject is a claim. If there is some corroboration of the claim, it is called a Validated claim. </a></div>
<div>Here is the definition from Skeats <span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">to call our for, or to publish, pretty much the same meaning as the Latin word </span><i style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">clarmare</i><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">.</span> </div>
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<div>the adjectives verified validated and registered should all work. I do like the historical precedent for registered myself. <br>
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<div>Peace ..tom</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 8:04 PM Anthony Nadalin via Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>> wrote:<br></div>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">It's a very very poor definition, you need to look at the real definition not a made up one<br>
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<div id="m_-6713633596864160993gmail-m_5985625740742696765divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Mike Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 15, 2019 7:37:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Torsten Lodderstedt; Anthony Nadalin<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Review of openid-connect-4-identity-assurance-04</font>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">The normative definition of “Claim” for JWTs is this one from the JWT spec at <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc7519%23section-2&data=04%7C01%7Ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7C0f365fd3d08544bc4bcc08d6f19f0e13%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636962062806639802%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C-1&sdata=9VDX6CJrpmf6yczeaZ7qh9Ja6cNJxZJMscgWSnyqJ4g%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-2</a>:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white"> Claim<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white"> A piece of information asserted about a subject. A claim is<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white"> represented as a name/value pair consisting of a Claim Name and a<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white"> Claim Value.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">It says nothing about doubt – just that the information was asserted. Therefore, I continue to agree that Torsten’s suggested identifier “verified_claim” is the right one.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Torsten Lodderstedt <<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 15, 2019 12:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anthony Nadalin <<a href="mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>>; Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Review of openid-connect-4-identity-assurance-04<u></u><u></u></p>
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Am 14.06.2019 um 18:48 schrieb Anthony Nadalin <<a href="mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It’s not a claim then, it’s a statement, it does not matter who has the claim, the issuer or the beholder, it’s still in doubt. I don’t understand enough of the “verified” statement since the language is vague in the specification, is it the provenance of the data or the truth of the data ?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would say first of all truth but backed by data about the provenance<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Happy to incorporate your text proposals to improve the spec language <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2019 9:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anthony Nadalin <<a href="mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>>; Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>>; Torsten Lodderstedt <<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Review of openid-connect-4-identity-assurance-04<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">A claim is a statement made by the issuer. A verified claim is one with evidence backing it beyond the veracity of the issuer.</span> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Doubt or belief are both properties of the beholder - not the issuer.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">-- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b> <span style="color:black">Anthony Nadalin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2019 6:44:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Artifact Binding/Connect Working Group; Torsten Lodderstedt<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Review of openid-connect-4-identity-assurance-04</span> <u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A claim is something in doubt, how can you have a verified claim?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Openid-specs-ab <<a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab-bounces@lists.openid.net</a>> <b>On Behalf Of</b> Mike Jones via Openid-specs-ab<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2019 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Torsten Lodderstedt <<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Review of openid-connect-4-identity-assurance-04<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">I agree with "verified_claims".</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Thanks!</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b> <span style="color:black">Torsten Lodderstedt <<a href="mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">torsten@lodderstedt.net</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2019 5:47:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Daniel Fett; <a href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Review of openid-connect-4-identity-assurance-04</span> <u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Hi Mike,<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot for your substantial feedback.<br>
<br>
While I'm incorporating it, I would like to sort out one question:<br>
<br>
> On 1. Jun 2019, at 02:16, Mike Jones <<a href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> All Sections: Generalize kinds of verified claims. The most important issue is to generalize the goal of the document from defining how to use “verified person data” to defining how to use “verified data”. This work isn’t happening in a vacuum. There are other efforts to define representations of verified claims in the industry, including <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fvc-data-model%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7C0f365fd3d08544bc4bcc08d6f19f0e13%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636962062806649796%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C-1&sdata=ZhD5gyQPknwyT3Vz7WSqY02%2BRgiSPimz3%2FCwNL%2BywMs%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://w3c.github.io/vc-data-model/</a>, that take this more general approach, but propose much more complicated data representations that are not based on JWTs. It would be highly beneficial to have a simple general JWT-based “verified data” representation that is general-purpose. Indeed, that’s the possibility that excites me about this work. Don’t get me wrong – I believe that all the particulars for verified people data can and should remain. The main concrete change needed is to rename “verified_person_data” to “verified_data”. <br>
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I think “verified_claims” would fit even better. What do you think?<br>
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best regards,<br>
Torsten.<br>
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