[Openid-specs-ab] What is a contributor?

Mike Jones Michael.Jones at microsoft.com
Sat Jul 28 19:49:34 UTC 2018


You're welcome.  Hopefully having the "How do working groups work?<http://openid.net/wg/about/>" doc will help everyone work together better.



Designing large-scale federation solutions using OpenID Connect requires contributions from both federation and Connect experts.  It's my observation that the work is already benefitting from the attention of both communities of experts (which do have significant overlap).



For instance, NORDUnet held a workshop last year in Copenhagen, chaired by Leif Johansson, on federation using OpenID Connect, at which the design decisions in the current specification were thoroughly discussed.  See the Friday workshop at https://events.nordu.net/display/NTW2017/Programme.  Participants included Andreas Solberg (who presented his related proposal), people from NORDUnet, SWAMID, WAIF, GEANT, SURFnet, GAR, GRNet, and others, including Roland and myself.  Their contributions were covered by the OpenID Note Well<https://openid.net/wordpress-content/uploads/2016/04/OIDF_Note_Well.pdf>.  Indeed, many of the changes between draft -03<https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-federation-1_0-03.html> and draft -04<https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-federation-1_0-04.html> were a result of feedback from this set of federation experts.  There have been other meetings of federation experts over the past year also devoted to this topic.  If any of you are interested in participating in similar workshops in the future, I'll make sure that they are announced on the OpenID Connect mailing list.



Yes, a different working group could have been formed for this work, but we made a conscious decision to keep Connect experts involved by doing it the Connect working group, while also deliberately seeking input from federation experts worldwide.  (I'll note that a number of them have joined the Connect working group and the OpenID Foundation to participate in this work.)  I believe that the work is well-known among the relevant communities of experts and is receiving appropriate attention from all them - thanks especially to Roland's outreach efforts.



I'll close by also thanking Andreas for bringing his proposal to the attention of the working group.  It has a lot of thought put into it and I encourage people to read it and consider the design choices described in it.



                                                       Best wishes,

                                                       -- Mike





-----Original Message-----
From: Openid-specs-ab <openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net> On Behalf Of Mike Schwartz via Openid-specs-ab
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:55 AM
To: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net
Cc: openid-specs-ab-request at lists.openid.net
Subject: [Openid-specs-ab] What is a contributor?



Mike J,



Thanks for putting this together. It does make the process easier to find. I think further clarification is needed, but I'll just nit-pick one issue for now to keep the scope of this discussion short.



"Consensus should reflect the opinion of a majority of Contributors"



Here is one of my main objections regarding the federation spec: How are contributors defined?



Perhaps you are defining contributors as the whole Connect WG. I would define contributors to the Federation spec much more narrowly.

Federation is a niche interest. To many of the corporate and consumer WG participants, this is not an important use case. So the idea that you could define a large group of contributors leads to the potential for a niche issue to be pushed through without the the proper governance and oversight--you could say that someone's silence is assent, when it really just means they don't care.



I think it would have been prudent to form a sub-WG of interested parties, and define that sub-group as the Contributors.



If we had done this for the federation spec, it would also have been more respectful of people's time, and we could have recruited a wider group of qualified people, enabling us to have a real discussion on the topic.



There are certainly many qualified people who could have helped. Andreas Solberg just proposed his own federation design--he obviously has some thoughts on this topic. Maybe we could have convinced Leif, Rainer, Keith, Judith, GTRI and others with deep knowledge of federation to participate. UK Open Banking might be the first federation due to their adoption of Connect, and their de facto position as a central authority that vets participants. We could have asked for their help. Had that happened, and a real discussion ensued of the design, I would have certainly been willing to accept the draft moving forward as a recommendation for implementation.



- Mike



------------------------

Michael Schwartz

Gluu

Founder / CEO

mike at gluu.org<mailto:mike at gluu.org>

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nynymike/



On 2018-07-28 07:00, openid-specs-ab-request at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-ab-request at lists.openid.net> wrote:

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>    1. Re: Reform OpenID Connect (Mike Jones)

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> Message: 1

> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:44:04 +0000

> From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones at microsoft.com<mailto:Michael.Jones at microsoft.com>>

> To: "openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net>"

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> Cc: Don Thibeau <don at oidf.org<mailto:don at oidf.org>>

> Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Reform OpenID Connect

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> I've written the promised "How do working groups work"? page

> http://openid.net/wg/about/ - as announced at

> http://openid.net/2018/07/27/how-do-working-groups-work/ and

> https://twitter.com/openid/status/1022986802754289665.  Thanks to Nat

> Sakimura, Adam Dawes, Carla Roncato, and Don Thibeau for their

> contributions to the content.  Hopefully this FAQ will be useful to

> working group participants new and old and help people most

> effectively participate in the OpenID working group processes.

>

>                                                     Best wishes,

>                                                     -- Mike

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Openid-specs-ab <openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-ab-bounces at lists.openid.net>> On

> Behalf Of Mike Jones via Openid-specs-ab

> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 12:24 PM

> To: Mike Schwartz <mike at gluu.org<mailto:mike at gluu.org>>

> Cc: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net>; Don Thibeau <don at oidf.org<mailto:don at oidf.org>>

> Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Reform OpenID Connect

>

> What is discussed at the working group meetings is up to those who

> show up.  What's been said about the Federation spec at the meetings

> is mostly that it appears to be on track, based on feedback from

> large-scale federation experts and early implementers.  If you have a

> different viewpoint and want to advocate specific changes, you could

> show up and we'll have a discussion about that.

>

> But complaining about process now when you haven't attended working

> group discussions to express your viewpoint seems a bit

> counterproductive.

>

>                                                     -- Mike

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Mike Schwartz <mike at gluu.org<mailto:mike at gluu.org>>

> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 12:15 PM

> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones at microsoft.com<mailto:Michael.Jones at microsoft.com>>

> Cc: openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net<mailto:openid-specs-ab at lists.openid.net>; Don Thibeau <don at oidf.org<mailto:don at oidf.org>>

> Subject: Re: [Openid-specs-ab] Reform OpenID Connect

>

> Mike J,

>

> According to the minutes, not much time is devoted to the federation

> topic at the meetings and on the calls. When I pointed this out in my

> email to the board, on 7/17, you inferred that this is

> normal--discussion happened on the mailing list:

>

> On 2018-07-17 10:32, Mike Jones wrote:

>> Substantive discussion happened on the mailing list

>

> Now it seems like we're switching back to the meetings (and calls I

> guess).

>

> At a higher level, the clear lack of consensus on the federation spec

> that existed before the vote is a red flag that the process is broken,

> and needs reform.

>

> As Don says in his blog: "Vote early and often":

> http://www.donthibeau.com/vote-early-and-often/

>

> Let's make that a reality.

>

> - Mike S

>

> -----------------------

> Michael Schwartz

> Gluu

> Founder / CEO

> mike at gluu.org<mailto:mike at gluu.org>

> https://www.linkedin.com/in/nynymike/

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