<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Gabe,<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>first let me be clear that it is much better to have a (complex) IPR policy than not having any at all. I am grateful to you and everybody else who has contributed to this so far.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Also to be clear, my measurement of complexity is very crude: the amount of time I (or anybody else) expects to need to spend until they understand the IPR policy. That's the equivalent of "how many screens do I need to click through to sign up" somewhere. The longer it is, the less likely it is that people will get involved. So far, we've been doing excellently well on that measure:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>"Nobody should own this ... " etc can be read and understood in about 10 seconds. I'm afraid that we are moving that measure up to 1 hour plus.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>It may be that it simply cannot be done in, say, 5 minutes. In which case, well, that's what we have to live with. Not being a lawyer, I will need to trust you and others to make that judgment call for us.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I'm just asking: is there some way we can simplify, even at the cost of moving from a 99% solution to an 80% solution (but not a 20% solution.) If the answer is no, well, so be it. If if the answer is "perhaps a bit", it should be worthwhile to pursue this.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Makes sense?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Thanks,</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Johannes.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Apr 23, 2007, at 18:02, Gabe Wachob wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV class="Section1"><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Johannes-<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I just don’t see how Microsoft or anyone else on their scale is going to contribute without something much more rigorous in place than what we have now. Verisign’s participation has been great, but I don’t think the IPR issue with Verisign is completely clear to outside parties, or even me! <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">You actually document some issues yourself, Johannes, in discussions late last year. For example:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><A href="http://osdir.com/ml/web.openid.specs/2006-12/msg00036.html">http://osdir.com/ml/web.openid.specs/2006-12/msg00036.html</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">What is too complicated in the current proposal? It’s much lighter-weight than any standards body I know of, and yet requires *<B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">no new behavior</SPAN></B>* of most people participating now (those who don’t care about ever asserting IPR rights). It puts the onus of extra work on those who only want to commit to a more specific set of licensing, as it should. Simple things simple, complicated things more complicated. If don’t care about protecting your IPR w/r/t OpenID, then you do nothing. If you do care, then you have an extra step to do. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">As for the language of the IPR policy itself, I actually think its fairly straightforward – lawyers will have to gnaw on it of course (if we don’t get started on that asap, we’ll never make IIW, to be honest). But I don’t think it’s all that complicated compared to most IPR agreements I’ve seen. Compare to W3C: <A href="http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/">http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/</A> or OASIS: <A href="http://www.oasis-open.org/who/intellectualproperty.php">http://www.oasis-open.org/who/intellectualproperty.php</A> or the IETF’s (which I think is getting an overhaul?): <A href="http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3979.txt">http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3979.txt</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">We’re not forming a standards body here, we’re just trying to make the environment “good enough” to attract a wider set of participants and adopters. Both sides are going to have to work a little bit in a new way, I think. To put a challenge to you, can you give examples of grassroots communities outside formal SDO’s adopting IPR policies that are both acceptable to large IPR-holding organizations as contributors and as 3<SUP>rd</SUP> party adopters? We should definitely be stealing their ideas rather than coming up with our own, but I’m not finding it… <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">In any case, I’ve added some notes on a workplan here: <A href="http://openid.net/wiki/index.php/IPR_%26_Process_Work_Plan">http://openid.net/wiki/index.php/IPR_%26_Process_Work_Plan</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> -Gabe<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"> <DIV> <DIV class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0pt"> <HR size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Tahoma"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Tahoma"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> board-bounces@openid.net [<A href="mailto:board-bounces@openid.net">mailto:board-bounces@openid.net</A>] <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Johannes Ernst<BR> <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, April 23, 2007 12:25 PM<BR> <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:board@openid.net">board@openid.net</A><BR> <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [OpenID board] IPR Policy and Process Proposal</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">This is quite complex. Is there a way to simplify and shorten substantially?<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">[I just read both policy proposal and process proposal, and in spite of having read previous drafts and having an interest in the subject, I suspect I'd have to spend several more hours to actually understand what all of this means. The problem is not that I need to take the time, but that such a time requirement will act as a rather effective barrier for new people to get involved in OpenID or feeling comfortable about what they are getting themselves into, something I'd like to avoid if can ...]<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> </DIV><P class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><SPAN style="border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px"><SPAN style="border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px"> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Johannes Ernst<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">NetMesh Inc.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><BR> </SPAN><SPAN><DIV><image001.gif></DIV></SPAN><SPAN><DIV><image002.gif></DIV></SPAN><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><SPAN style="border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto; 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margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/board">http://openid.net/mailman/listinfo/board</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Johannes Ernst</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">NetMesh Inc.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><IMG src="cid:9173E289-5D6D-4850-B823-FDF7D115EF12@local"></SPAN><SPAN><IMG src="cid:5CC41088-A082-4AA9-8169-EFD940AF9ADA@aviatis.com"></SPAN><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; 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